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Author Topic: Bitcoin and proof of stake  (Read 871 times)
thecodebear
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February 08, 2023, 01:24:59 AM
 #81

Please take into account that over time, new generations of ASICs are more effectively and beneficially in energy consumption and hashrate it can produce. In addition, with time, miners have gradually switched to new electricity resources and they aim at cheaper as well as more environmental friendly, renewable resources.

Anyway, take this discussion to look back at what satoshi wrote 12 years ago.
Right.  Otherwise we couldn't have a finite limit of 21 million coins, because there would always need to be some minimum reward for generating.  In a few decades when the reward gets too small, the transaction fee will become the main compensation for nodes.  I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.
The Proof of Work algorithm and the finite total supply of Bitcoin has pros and cons. It will not have an ending in between great success and failure. Just ends in one way or another. If Bitcoin price can keep jumping into another high level after each halving, miners will keep mining because they will still have profit. That in turn will make the Bitcoin network becomes bigger and bigger as we have been witnessing last 13 years. Else, miners will abandon and Bitcoin network will become less secure and even a dead one.

I know about difficulty retarget after each 2016 blocks but what satoshi wrote is true.

Exactly. PoW may not be perfect, but it's the best thing around for the preservation of decentralization and censorship-resistance. Governments are still against PoW mining, not because it "harms the environment" (which is false), but mostly because they don't want to lose control. They want to prevent as much people as possible from using Bitcoin as an alternative to existing Fiat currencies.

By pushing cryptocurrencies to switch to PoS, governments will be able to make them centralized. We cannot let that happen for the sake of crypto/Blockchain tech. No one knows what the future holds for Bitcoin, so we can only hope for the best. Just my thoughts Grin


I don't even think it is that. Governments (meaning: politicians and central bankers) are against PoW simply because they don't understand it. They are reading the same sensationalist headlines about energy consumption that the rest of us see. These people aren't enthusiasts who take the time to actually educate themselves on Bitcoin and mining and PoW. They just read headlines about Bitcoin using X amount of energy and producing X amount of carbon and they don't never get beyond these surface level statistics. They don't understand the reason for the mining, and they don't understand that the people who are writing the articles or reports they are reading don't know anything more about PoW and Bitcoin mining than they themselves do.

PoW simply has an optics problem. If you don't know what you're talking about and you just look at the amount of energy it uses, yes it looks very bad. If you do know what you're talking about then you understand the reason for the energy use and why it is beneficial to society for a number of different reasons. Just like if you had no idea what computers did and how they helped society but all you knew was how much energy they used globally anyone (at least anyone who gives a damn about the environment and the well-being of society) would be outraged. It's just pure ignorance on the topic that causes people, politicians or anyone else, to hate PoW and think Bitcoin should switch to PoS. I mean the very fact that they believe Bitcoin CAN switch to PoS, or the fact that they think if Bitcoin doesn't then just another crypto CAN and SHOULD replace Bitcoin shows that they have zero specific knowledge on the topic of Bitcoin and Crypto.

I very much doubt there are many politicians or even central bankers that understand the difference between PoW and PoS other than one uses a lot of energy and the other doesn't. So I doubt much or any of the opposition to PoW is because governments want Bitcoin to be weaker through PoS. It's just the optics of the energy use that is the problem.

PoW doesn't have an energy problem. It has an optics problem. And because of that optics problem there is so much misinformation that has been spread about PoW, which makes it really easy to think PoW does have an energy problem. The answer to PoW's problem is simply educating the public and politicians about how PoW really works and why the claims that it is wasteful are nonsensical.
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February 08, 2023, 12:15:23 PM
 #82

I don't even think it is that. Governments (meaning: politicians and central bankers) are against PoW simply because they don't understand it. They are reading the same sensationalist headlines about energy consumption that the rest of us see. These people aren't enthusiasts who take the time to actually educate themselves on Bitcoin and mining and PoW. They just read headlines about Bitcoin using X amount of energy and producing X amount of carbon and they don't never get beyond these surface level statistics. They don't understand the reason for the mining, and they don't understand that the people who are writing the articles or reports they are reading don't know anything more about PoW and Bitcoin mining than they themselves do.

PoW simply has an optics problem. If you don't know what you're talking about and you just look at the amount of energy it uses, yes it looks very bad. If you do know what you're talking about then you understand the reason for the energy use and why it is beneficial to society for a number of different reasons. Just like if you had no idea what computers did and how they helped society but all you knew was how much energy they used globally anyone (at least anyone who gives a damn about the environment and the well-being of society) would be outraged. It's just pure ignorance on the topic that causes people, politicians or anyone else, to hate PoW and think Bitcoin should switch to PoS. I mean the very fact that they believe Bitcoin CAN switch to PoS, or the fact that they think if Bitcoin doesn't then just another crypto CAN and SHOULD replace Bitcoin shows that they have zero specific knowledge on the topic of Bitcoin and Crypto.

I very much doubt there are many politicians or even central bankers that understand the difference between PoW and PoS other than one uses a lot of energy and the other doesn't. So I doubt much or any of the opposition to PoW is because governments want Bitcoin to be weaker through PoS. It's just the optics of the energy use that is the problem.

PoW doesn't have an energy problem. It has an optics problem. And because of that optics problem there is so much misinformation that has been spread about PoW, which makes it really easy to think PoW does have an energy problem. The answer to PoW's problem is simply educating the public and politicians about how PoW really works and why the claims that it is wasteful are nonsensical.

PoW mining can be as green as PoS. It's just that governments don't truly understand how it works. Either that, or they're doing it on purpose to keep as many people away from Bitcoin as possible. We all know the government doesn't like Bitcoin because it's decentralized. The vast majority of crypto projects switched to PoS out of fear from the government. Not because they wanted to. This is bad, because PoS effectively makes the Blockchain centralized. In fact, the crypto industry is much more centralized now than what it was a couple of years ago.

It's likely Bitcoin will remain the only PoW coin in existence, while the rest turn themselves to PoS. I'd be suprised if someone forks BTC someday to create a PoS version of it. But that I doubt it will gather significant attention from investors, especially when it will be a "Bitcoin clone" with another consensus algorithm. The future is widely unpredictable so we can only hope for the best. Just my thoughts Grin

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March 18, 2023, 07:41:52 PM
 #83

why the Bitcoin protocol cannot use PoS instead of PoW is because it would require a major change to the fundamental design of the bitcoin network.
Bitcoin's PoW algorithm is a key part of its security model, and any change to the consensus algorithm would require a hard fork, which could create a separate and incompatible blockchain

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March 18, 2023, 08:50:04 PM
 #84

Because of two reasons at least for me

1. Because consensus switches like these are expensive and not even guaranteeing ease of access and cheaper and faster transactions, and;
2. Because Bitcoin just wouldn't work as a proof-of-stake, let me explain.

Bitcoin as a currency is flawed, with so many attack vectors that could very well be abused by the people with half a mind to control it. With PoS, you are centralizing the control of the whole network, which could easily become a target for massive attacks and hackings.

Also, you're putting the whales at the forefront of control with PoS. In PoS, the voting mechanism is determined by who owns the most coins, and only by then will you be allowed to cast a vote, this is why it works for altcoins, because devs could very well control the circulation and make the team own the most coins out of everyone, whale or not. Bitcoin doesn't have that liberty, so if you switch to PoS and have the whales control bitcoin, you're giving them nigh-omnipotence over the coin. At least with PoW, everyone could have a say, just contribute a little by expending energy for mining and you're good, in PoS, this will never work.

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March 18, 2023, 09:03:35 PM
 #85

why bitcoin protocol cannot use pos instead of pow ?

Oh not this topic again!

Bitcoin does not need POS and will never implement POS! Look at what happened on the first day of Ethereum becoming POS: over 46% of all Ethereum POS nodes were owned by simply 2 addresses. Do you understand the danger ETH is in right now?

Its basically a centralized blockchain at this point, meaning a small group/ a few individuals have total dominion over the ETH blockchain. Do you really want this to happen to Bitcoin? To become subverted of control by rich and powerful individuals?

We need to make sure that Bitcoin remains truly decentralized. Otherwise it becomes a CBDC. Which is why the governments are shilling so hard with their bullshit environment protection narrative.

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March 18, 2023, 09:23:09 PM
Merited by goldkingcoiner (1)
 #86

why bitcoin protocol cannot use pos instead of pow ?

Oh not this topic again!

Bitcoin does not need POS and will never implement POS! Look at what happened on the first day of Ethereum becoming POS: over 46% of all Ethereum POS nodes were owned by simply 2 addresses. Do you understand the danger ETH is in right now?

Its basically a centralized blockchain at this point, meaning a small group/ a few individuals have total dominion over the ETH blockchain. Do you really want this to happen to Bitcoin? To become subverted of control by rich and powerful individuals?

We need to make sure that Bitcoin remains truly decentralized. Otherwise it becomes a CBDC. Which is why the governments are shilling so hard with their bullshit environment protection narrative.
Seems like you've seen one too many topics about this lmao. But yeah the main narrative that these PoS visionaries put out is that "bitcoin would be faster if it was running in PoS" when the truth is, if bitcoin wasn't running efficiently in PoW, it wouldn't be different if it were to run in PoS, it's still going to suck. The worst part about this is that bitcoin would be at the mercy of the whales in terms of computing power and data processing. Bitcoin is great as it is right now, the transaction problem is definitely pesky but over threats of a network wide shutdown due to hacker attacks, and whales controlling the whole ecosystem? Yeah transaction problem please.
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March 20, 2023, 04:50:23 PM
 #87

Oh not this topic again!

Bitcoin does not need POS and will never implement POS! Look at what happened on the first day of Ethereum becoming POS: over 46% of all Ethereum POS nodes were owned by simply 2 addresses. Do you understand the danger ETH is in right now?

Its basically a centralized blockchain at this point, meaning a small group/ a few individuals have total dominion over the ETH blockchain. Do you really want this to happen to Bitcoin? To become subverted of control by rich and powerful individuals?

We need to make sure that Bitcoin remains truly decentralized. Otherwise it becomes a CBDC. Which is why the governments are shilling so hard with their bullshit environment protection narrative.

The "deep state" wants Bitcoin to switch to PoS just to become a centralized coin. Only then, they'll be able to do whatever they want with it. Exchanges usually hold most of the coin's supply (customer funds), so they will have absolute control over a PoS-based blockchain network. Consider how ETH is now manipulated by big players in the industry. This wouldn't have happened if it remained a PoW coin where anyone with a GPU could contribute to its decentralization.

For this and many other reasons, Bitcoin will never become a PoS cryptocurrency. I wouldn't be surprised if there's another hard fork related to BTC that would use PoS as its consensus layer. Ultimately, the longest chain (BTC) will prevail while the new one will quickly fade into oblivion. Who knows if BTC ends uo being the only PoW cryptocurrency in the world? Just my opinion Smiley

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