Electrum...

[DecipherBTC]

Ive Been trying to figure out Electrum for like 12 Hours straight today. I cant seem to find this last piece of Information. Please tell me if i am wrong and at what Point..

Electrum can import valid BIP39 seed phrases - correct.

Electrum does NOT use its own word list, and it has not done since 2015, correct?

Also, electrum has its own way of validating a seed phrase, but how?

And once you have a seed phrase, how can you make a master seed from that? With normal BIP39 seed phrases, the process seems pretty clear, but is this Even possible? And is it possible for a seed phrase to be a valid electrum seed AND BIP39 seed?

If you convert your BIP39 phrase to a master seed, you can easily generate other blockchain addresses like LTC etc etc etc, but can you do the same for a electrum generated seed phrase?

Since the process seems to be different, is it then in theory possible that the same BIP39 phrase and electrum phrase will get 2 different master seeds?

Another thing.. How are normally electrum wallets imported into other wallets, if the seed phrase is different. Is it just by xprv or wif?

Sorry for the bad grammar, hope somebody can Help..

[pooya87]

Electrum can import valid BIP39 seed phrases - correct.

Correct.

Electrum does NOT use its own word list, and it has not done since 2015, correct?

It uses the same word-list as BIP39 but also has this feature where user can use a custom word list with an arbitrary number of words in it (in other words it is not strict to have 2048 words).

Also, electrum has its own way of validating a seed phrase, but how?

Electrum uses its own algorithm which can be seen here: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/electrum/mnemonic.py

It's basically generating an entropy then computes its HMACSHA512 of it and if it starts with the desired bits (that indicate type of the addresses to derive from it) it is accepted, otherwise it will be incremented until it is found. ref.

(1) And once you have a seed phrase, how can you make a master seed from that? With normal BIP39 seed phrases, the process seems pretty clear, but is this Even possible?
(2) And is it possible for a seed phrase to be a valid electrum seed AND BIP39 seed?

(1) Very similar to BIP39 using PBKDF2 but the normalization is different and the salt used is "electrum+pass"
(2) It is possible to have a mnemonic that is a valid Electrum mnemonic and a BIP39 mnemonic but the wallet won't generate such seed phrases because in the process I explained above it will reject those and keep incrementing ref

If you convert your BIP39 phrase to a master seed, you can easily generate other blockchain addresses like LTC etc etc etc, but can you do the same for a electrum generated seed phrase?

Seed is just entropy and entropy can be used to derive child keys and those keys can be converted to keys and addresses of any altcoin.

Since the process seems to be different, is it then in theory possible that the same BIP39 phrase and electrum phrase will get 2 different master seeds?

They WILL get different BIP32 seeds because the process is different. As I said the PBKDF2 uses a different salt so the only way of getting the same seed is to encounter a collision which is so unlikely we can call it impossible.

Another thing.. How are normally electrum wallets imported into other wallets, if the seed phrase is different. Is it just by xprv or wif?

Either the other wallet supports Electrum algorithm so you can import the seed phrase directly, or your only option is to convert it to an extended key (xprv) and import that or import individual keys (WIF) that are both universal and supported by all wallets.

[MusaMohamed]

To use Electrum wallet, you don't need to dig too deep technically like this.

Electrum wallet software builds up its own word list and BIP39 was introduced 2 years after Electrum.
https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/seedphrase.html
bip32 wallet structure for electrum
Why you cannot enter an arbitrary seed in Electrum

It's more important to verify your download before use Electrum wallet.
[GUIDE] How to Safely Download and Verify Electrum
Unofficial guides for Electrum wallet from a third party site.
BitcoinElectrum.com

[nc50lc]

Just some additional info:

Electrum can import valid BIP39 seed phrases - correct.

Electrum does NOT use its own word list, and it has not done since 2015, correct?

2015? If you mean its old wordlist before v2.0 (link), then yes, it doesn't use it to generate new mnemonics anymore.
If BIP39's word list (around late 2013), Electrum uses the same words by default, listed here: github.com/spesmilo/electrum/tree/master/electrum/wordlist

But its algorithm allows "power users" to use any words of their choosing if they made changes in the word list, or with their own Electrum seed phrase tool that follows Electrum's standards.
For example, this seed phrase containing names of various fruits is a valid Electrum seed:

Code:

blackberry longan cherimoya pomelo pineapple barberry aratiles chico tangelo persimmon clementine lemon

Since the process seems to be different, is it then in theory possible that the same BIP39 phrase and electrum phrase will get 2 different master seeds?

Yes, but that's if you happen to create a mnemonic that is both valid in BIP39 and Electrum standards.

Electrum's implementation made sure that its generated Electrum seed isn't also a valid BIP39 seed, otherwise it wont output the seed and generate another one.
Ref: github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/electrum/mnemonic.py#L226-L232

[DecipherBTC]

Electrum can import valid BIP39 seed phrases - correct.

Correct.

Electrum does NOT use its own word list, and it has not done since 2015, correct?

It uses the same word-list as BIP39 but also has this feature where user can use a custom word list with an arbitrary number of words in it (in other words it is not strict to have 2048 words).

Also, electrum has its own way of validating a seed phrase, but how?

Electrum uses its own algorithm which can be seen here: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/electrum/mnemonic.py

It's basically generating an entropy then computes its HMACSHA512 of it and if it starts with the desired bits (that indicate type of the addresses to derive from it) it is accepted, otherwise it will be incremented until it is found. ref.

(1) And once you have a seed phrase, how can you make a master seed from that? With normal BIP39 seed phrases, the process seems pretty clear, but is this Even possible?
(2) And is it possible for a seed phrase to be a valid electrum seed AND BIP39 seed?

(1) Very similar to BIP39 using PBKDF2 but the normalization is different and the salt used is "electrum+pass"
(2) It is possible to have a mnemonic that is a valid Electrum mnemonic and a BIP39 mnemonic but the wallet won't generate such seed phrases because in the process I explained above it will reject those and keep incrementing ref

If you convert your BIP39 phrase to a master seed, you can easily generate other blockchain addresses like LTC etc etc etc, but can you do the same for a electrum generated seed phrase?

Seed is just entropy and entropy can be used to derive child keys and those keys can be converted to keys and addresses of any altcoin.

Since the process seems to be different, is it then in theory possible that the same BIP39 phrase and electrum phrase will get 2 different master seeds?

They WILL get different BIP32 seeds because the process is different. As I said the PBKDF2 uses a different salt so the only way of getting the same seed is to encounter a collision which is so unlikely we can call it impossible.

Another thing.. How are normally electrum wallets imported into other wallets, if the seed phrase is different. Is it just by xprv or wif?

Either the other wallet supports Electrum algorithm so you can import the seed phrase directly, or your only option is to convert it to an extended key (xprv) and import that or import individual keys (WIF) that are both universal and supported by all wallets.

Great. You understood what i actually asked, and you answered all of the questions i needed. The main thing i was doing incorrect was using the wrong salt. BIP uses mnmonic but electrum uses electrum. Thank you very very much sir.

[BitMaxz]

If you convert your BIP39 phrase to a master seed, you can easily generate other blockchain addresses like LTC etc etc etc, but can you do the same for a electrum generated seed phrase?

I don't get what you are pointing to about master seed because there is no such a master seed if you generated it from Electrum it is a unique seed phrase that can be only verify through Electrum unlike BIP39.

What you can only get from seed phrases are key pairs of public keys and private keys derived from the seed and also Electrum seed or BIP39 seed has a master public and private key maybe this is the one you looking for?

If I'm right you can find the master public key under wallet> information on Electrum and if its master private key you can get it through command on the console and it is not safe to dump it while online but if you still insist you can go to console on Electrum and use this command below.

Code:

getmasterprivate()

[DecipherBTC]

If you convert your BIP39 phrase to a master seed, you can easily generate other blockchain addresses like LTC etc etc etc, but can you do the same for a electrum generated seed phrase?

I don't get what you are pointing to about master seed because there is no such a master seed if you generated it from Electrum it is a unique seed phrase that can be only verify through Electrum unlike BIP39.

What you can only get from seed phrases are key pairs of public keys and private keys derived from the seed and also Electrum seed or BIP39 seed has a master public and private key maybe this is the one you looking for?

If I'm right you can find the master public key under wallet> information on Electrum and if its master private key you can get it through command on the console and it is not safe to dump it while online but if you still insist you can go to console on Electrum and use this command below.

Code:

getmasterprivate()

Yes, you are right, that is what i wondered, how to Get the master seed from the electrum seed phrase, and i managed to do it in the electrum Console, thanks!


My goal was to use this master seed to derive private keys for other coins, so that i could use this electrum phrase to Secure my altcoins

[BitMaxz]

Yes, you are right, that is what i wondered, how to Get the master seed from the electrum seed phrase, and i managed to do it in the electrum Console, thanks!


My goal was to use this master seed to derive private keys for other coins, so that i could use this electrum phrase to Secure my altcoins

As I said, there is no such thing as a master seed phrase the command we use is for the master private key, and yes it contains private keys derived from a seed phrase but I don't still get it why you need the master private key if you can generate a key pairs from the seed phrase?

For me, if this is all about securing your altcoins then the only solution to secure your altcoin wallet is to make a cold storage wallet, not the dumping master private key.

[Cricktor]

My goal was to use this master seed to derive private keys for other coins, so that i could use this electrum phrase to Secure my altcoins

Don't use the extended private key of your main Electrum wallet where you control the keys for substantial value of bitcoins for an altcoin wallet. I mean, I wouldn't do that. YMMV.

Even if the altcoin wallet is open-source, are you sure it's software quality is on par with Electrum.