Copy/paste

[Pinemarten]

Copy/paste this statement, or something similar, to any doom sites that say bitcoin is a bubble and will be worthless in the future:

"If you think of bitcoin as a collector item like stamps, coins, and Star Wars dolls; then the value will always go up because of the rarity. Pawn shops and comicons will always pay more than you did. If they don't want to pay, then don't sell. I still have an Elvis 8-track in the original package that I will sell in 50 years and buy a yacht."

[odolvlobo]

"If you think of bitcoin as a collector item like stamps, coins, and Star Wars dolls; then the value will always go up because of the rarity. Pawn shops and comicons will always pay more than you did. If they don't want to pay, then don't sell. I still have an Elvis 8-track in the original package that I will sell in 50 years and buy a yacht."

That's wishful thinking. I have a Roman coin in good condition that is over 1000 years old and it is worth only a few hundred dollars at most. What about Bored Ape NFTs? Those are much more collectible than bitcoins and are worth only a fraction of what they used to go for after only a few years.

[pooya87]

People saying crazy things like this is one of the reasons why bitcoin is still volatile! There are some people who still think bitcoin is some magic internet money that is only valuable because it has a capped supply but that is not the reason at all. And you want to invite more of those people into the market.
If it were because of capped supply, there are many altcoins with capped supply as well, many of which aren't even around anymore!

The reason why bitcoin is valuable and will continue to rise until mass adoption is its utility as money which means store of value and medium of exchange at the same time. Having the capped supply only helps the price rise by eliminating an inherent inflation that fiat (no capped supply) has, but it is not the reason.

[franky1]

People saying crazy things like this is one of the reasons why bitcoin is still volatile! There are some people who still think bitcoin is some magic internet money that is only valuable because it has a capped supply but that is not the reason at all. And you want to invite more of those people into the market.
If it were because of capped supply, there are many altcoins with capped supply as well, many of which aren't even around anymore!

The reason why bitcoin is valuable and will continue to rise until mass adoption is its utility as money which means store of value and medium of exchange at the same time. Having the capped supply only helps the price rise by eliminating an inherent inflation that fiat (no capped supply) has, but it is not the reason.

there is alot more to it than 'utility'

imagine the most efficient method of acquiring bitcoin is (a)
no one will want to sell below (a)

imagine the most inefficient method of acquiring bitcoin is (z)
no one will want to buy above (z)

so look at the PoW cost of mining, which ranges(a-z) across the planet because of things like electric price differences ($0.04-$0.50 per kwh)
where by right now at the 800exahash hashrate has a mining cost range of (a)$65k-(z)$375k

the market rate will speculate between (b)-(y) depending on demand and other things which people decide on, eg things like people enjoying bitcoins utility or scarcity or other features
you will find the pacific island nations have the highest mining cost so they are the ones fully willing to buy even to (y) because its cheaper than their(z) mining cost.. and thats the emphasis of my rant of "more to it than 'utility'"

bitcoin will always have a value-premium range of a-z and the market price will swing/speculate between b-y... in a economic logic market
a-z itself will also change. and as long as more people want to mine it and the hashrate continues to rise long term the (a) increase will support a increase of the base value where no one wants to sell below(a) because the market rate will be above (a)

the same goes for a economic logical market premium
in 2021 z was under $80k
in 2025 z is under $400k

meaning the economic logic market can top out near that amount (unless someone manipulates the market outside of the logic of economics(fake orders))
the only time bitcoin bubbled above its economic logic (z) was in 2011, but each cycle since, bitcoin has stayed in its periodic (b)-(y) showing the market is healthy and following economic logic

...
in short.. the reason gold is not sold for $2 is not due to "utility" its due to the mining cost of gold being not $2/ounce but instead over $1k/ounce which causes the market to speculate over $1k and wont be $2 unless something terrific happens like millions of tonnes of gold rich asteroid rained down on earth where everyone on planet can mine in their backyard with a spoon and a filter for $1 a ounce and everyone starts selling down to a $2 market

[odolvlobo]

The reason why bitcoin is valuable and will continue to rise until mass adoption is its utility as money which means store of value and medium of exchange at the same time. Having the capped supply only helps the price rise by eliminating an inherent inflation that fiat (no capped supply) has, but it is not the reason.

there is alot more to it than 'utility'
...
in short.. the reason gold is not sold for $2 is not due to "utility" its due to the mining cost of gold being not $2/ounce but instead over $1k/ounce which causes the market to speculate over $1k and wont be $2 unless something terrific happens like millions of tonnes of gold rich asteroid rained down on earth where everyone on planet can mine in their backyard with a spoon and a filter for $1 a ounce and everyone starts selling down to a $2 market

Your explanation is naive and insufficient. It relies solely on the Law of Supply -- there is a direct relationship between price and supply, but it totally ignores other significant factors -- the Law of Demand, the fact that gold mining lowers the price of gold instead of supporting it, and the fact that most gold is not consumed.

The Law of Demand basically states that there is a direct relationship between price and demand. Regardless, of how much it costs to mine gold, if there is less demand for it, then the price will drop. At the extreme, if there is no demand, then the price is $0, even if it costs $1k to mine it.

Finally, gold mining does not support the price of gold. Instead, mining tends to cause the price to drop to cost of mining. As long as the price is higher than the cost to mine, more gold will be mined leading to more supply and lower prices. Mining does not prevent the price from going below the cost of mining.

Even if the price of gold is less than the cost of mining and mining stops, there is still supply because most gold is not consumed and there are plenty of non-miners with gold to sell.

Anyway, back to Bitcoin and "utility"...

I agree that utility is not the only factor in the price because utility determines demand and the Law of Demand is not the only factor. The price is determined by the convergence of the Laws of Supply and Demand.

However, it is correct to say that utility does support the price because more utility increases demand, while the cost of mining does not support the price because a higher cost does not lower supply.

[nakamura12]

I agree with the post above that you solely depends on law of supply and demand without explanation for it's utility although for something like that which is not to be used but for collection only so I wouldn't say there would be a lot of demand for it. For bitcoin, it's not just a utility but also useful in different ways. It can be used in different ways like as payment method, investment and more. So, if many people wanted to use bitcoin then the demand will increase hence why the price increase. If you copy your statement then it's a plagiarized content.

[franky1]

The reason why bitcoin is valuable and will continue to rise until mass adoption is its utility as money which means store of value and medium of exchange at the same time. Having the capped supply only helps the price rise by eliminating an inherent inflation that fiat (no capped supply) has, but it is not the reason.

there is alot more to it than 'utility'
...
in short.. the reason gold is not sold for $2 is not due to "utility" its due to the mining cost of gold being not $2/ounce but instead over $1k/ounce which causes the market to speculate over $1k and wont be $2 unless something terrific happens like millions of tonnes of gold rich asteroid rained down on earth where everyone on planet can mine in their backyard with a spoon and a filter for $1 a ounce and everyone starts selling down to a $2 market

Your explanation is naive and insufficient. It relies solely on the Law of Supply -- there is a direct relationship between price and supply, but it totally ignores other significant factors -- the Law of Demand, the fact that gold mining lowers the price of gold instead of supporting it, and the fact that most gold is not consumed.

The Law of Demand basically states that there is a direct relationship between price and demand. Regardless, of how much it costs to mine gold, if there is less demand for it, then the price will drop. At the extreme, if there is no demand, then the price is $0, even if it costs $1k to mine it.

Finally, gold mining does not support the price of gold. Instead, mining tends to cause the price to drop to cost of mining. As long as the price is higher than the cost to mine, more gold will be mined leading to more supply and lower prices. Mining does not prevent the price from going below the cost of mining.

Even if the price of gold is less than the cost of mining and mining stops, there is still supply because most gold is not consumed and there are plenty of non-miners with gold to sell.

Anyway, back to Bitcoin and "utility"...

I agree that utility is not the only factor in the price because utility determines demand and the Law of Demand is not the only factor. The price is determined by the convergence of the Laws of Supply and Demand.

However, it is correct to say that utility does support the price because more utility increases demand, while the cost of mining does not support the price because a higher cost does not lower supply.

mining(as a generalised term your suggesting) does not support the price.....

mining in the most efficient way is under the market price
the market price then speculates above the most efficient mining cost(a)

as you infact admit. if mining is not profitable less people mine. this then gives more sats to those remaining and so the mining cost(a) would decline and remain under the market rate

and as i said the market rate would be under the (z) of inefficient mining costs, where by those with such high costs already gave up mining and instead taking advantage of buying from the market at discount..
so imagine (a)-(z) range of mining costs ($65k-$375k)

now imagine the bitcoin market price was at (d).. where by all the other countries around the world with mining costs of (e)-(z) dont see the advantage of mining and instead just buy at (d) right now.. because(e)-(z) are not mining this gives (a)-(c) more sats meaning their costs are lower due to lack of mining competition from (e)-(z)
if the market was higher to be more profitable for say (e)-(k) then (a)-(c) would get less sats due to higher competition, thus (a) would be higher than $65k where no one wants to sell below (a) still.. for obvious reasons

as for your "supply" theory
in 2012 there was only 11.5m coins in circulation but price was less than now, with more coins in circulation(19.9m).. so "supply" is not as you think
because in the lame highschool 'supply demand' the price would have been higher in the earlier years due to less supply
(based on your version of supply/demand)

however actual economics shows that markets do not process all 19.9m circulation. heck they dont even process whole btc per orderline.. the market supply is less than you think and not judged on by the 'scarcity' supply cap. heck statistics sites show only 13k btc was the volume amount of most exchanges combined yesterday..

but when you look at how the mining reward halved months ago and the markets went from $25k-$50k to prepare for the change.. you start to see the effects of which "supply" and costing affects the market

[PrivacyG]

That's wishful thinking.

Not only wishful thinking.  But also very unrealistic and unhealthy thinking.

If we all bought Bitcoin only to wait for our nothing to become something, we would all be out in disappointment.  And there are enough people who do just that.  They buy Bitcoin thinking it can turn a few hundred Dollars into millions by just waiting.  Those times are LONG gone.  Bitcoin still offers incredible Profit, but not as incredible as it used to.  And that is natural and it is okay.

I would even be extremely worried and cautious if Bitcoin continued to offer what it used to.  It means the whole Economy is dead and dying painfully and the worst crisis of our history is probably coming.  Fortunately, Bitcoin still offers a natural growth.

[kotajikikox]

The reason why bitcoin is valuable and will continue to rise until mass adoption is its utility as money which means store of value and medium of exchange at the same time. Having the capped supply only helps the price rise by eliminating an inherent inflation that fiat (no capped supply) has, but it is not the reason.

Really good point and what should be said to those who doubt bitcoin or don’t understand it at all. Collectible items are bought for only the purpose of displaying it and bragging rights for having it. Some of them may not be that valuable later on if the trend passes and no one really cares or remembers about your collectible item.

This is why memecoins are often not valuable after a couple of years sometimes even months. It has no purpose at all. Compared to bitcoin where this is a currency you can use to transact with about anyone at any place through any platform securely and easily. Something that a lot of memecoins lack.

[Darker45]

If that's the way we sell Bitcoin, nobody would buy. Bitcoin isn't bought because it's rare or would go rare in the future. If rarity is the only value that Bitcoin can offer, then it must be a big failure. Bitcoin has value because of its features.

If Bitcoin fails today and there's an overall supply of 2.1 quadrillion Satoshis that would be in existence, it wouldn't be rare. My grandma's underwear is much rarer. Rarity alone has never been a sufficient reason for something to become valuable.

[Ale88]

Copy/paste this statement, or something similar, to any doom sites that say bitcoin is a bubble and will be worthless in the future:

"If you think of bitcoin as a collector item like stamps, coins, and Star Wars dolls; then the value will always go up because of the rarity. Pawn shops and comicons will always pay more than you did. If they don't want to pay, then don't sell. I still have an Elvis 8-track in the original package that I will sell in 50 years and buy a yacht."

Despite the fact that I would never compare bitcoin to some collectible items, your statement says that "the value will always go up because of the rarity", how can you be sure about that? It's not that easy. You mention Star Wars, I don't like Star Wars and I would never buy anything related to it, and if one day there will be no people left (or very few) who care about Star Wars than whatever collectible you have will have no value because no one would buy it. The same goes with Pokemon cards, stamps, etc, if there is no interest the price will go to zero because those are just objects that you buy and put on a shelf. Bitcoin is totally different, it actually has a purpose.

[MusaMohamed]

People saying crazy things like this is one of the reasons why bitcoin is still volatile! There are some people who still think bitcoin is some magic internet money that is only valuable because it has a capped supply but that is not the reason at all.

It is not only reason at all but people need to understand it first.
How is the 21 millions bitcoin cap defined and enforced?
Bitcoin controlled supply.

It's right that Bitcoin value does not come from its capped total supply, because reason is like this, altcoins with smaller capped supplies would have their prices higher than Bitcoin price.

This book, The bullish case for Bitcoin insightfully explains about Bitcoin intrinsic specifications and main contributors to its value.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If you still see people talking about it, and calling it a bubble, copy/paste the following:

"The currency you hold is a product of a banking cartel that has government-granted monopoly on the creation of money, meaning that no other entity can compete by issuing another currency, just as with any other product in the free market. These banks exploit their government-backed privilege to siphon wealth from you, orchestrate wars, distort science by funding only research that serves their interests, and manipulate the political system that profoundly shapes your life and the future of your children.

If you think the free-market alternative to money is a bubble, it might be time to consider that you may be living in one."

[examplens]

If you still see people talking about it, and calling it a bubble, copy/paste the following:

"The currency you hold is a product of a banking cartel that has government-granted monopoly on the creation of money, meaning that no other entity can compete by issuing another currency, just as with any other product in the free market. These banks exploit their government-backed privilege to siphon wealth from you, orchestrate wars, distort science by funding only research that serves their interests, and manipulate the political system that profoundly shapes your life and the future of your children.

If you think the free-market alternative to money is a bubble, it might be time to consider that you may be living in one."

Bitcoin needs to get out of the investment opportunity narrative. Most people talk about it exclusively as a chance to invest and make money doing nothing. I miss the time when Bitcoin was mostly considered a means of payment and a symbol for fast transactions regardless of region. Now, everywhere, there is only talk about what will increase its value, when the new ATH...

[MainIbem]

If you still see people talking about it, and calling it a bubble, copy/paste the following:

"The currency you hold is a product of a banking cartel that has government-granted monopoly on the creation of money, meaning that no other entity can compete by issuing another currency, just as with any other product in the free market. These banks exploit their government-backed privilege to siphon wealth from you, orchestrate wars, distort science by funding only research that serves their interests, and manipulate the political system that profoundly shapes your life and the future of your children.

If you think the free-market alternative to money is a bubble, it might be time to consider that you may be living in one."

It's not yet dawn on some people concerning how valuable bitcoin is and the potential it has, to gain more value in future that's why they still think it's some bubble or whatever. Well, despite the resistance some are showing I'm impressed that lots are gradually waking up to Btcoin but it's not enough yet since a large portion of the world is yet to embrace it. On the other hand, if Bitcoin could thrive even as there's still yet to be a massive adoption of it, critics should think about how it would be when a good portion of the world embraces it, we're getting to that point anyways all it would take is time and patience but then those who are privileged to witness this early stages of this digital Gold (Bitcoin), should be seriously accumulating it for the future. The sweetest thing about it is that the government has zero control over it and that's gives everyone the right and opportunity to shape their future and that of their children, i wonder why some people are still yet to embrace it, Bitcoin is the future and the earlier people start believing in it, the better their future.