Did I bust CW out here with one tweet? (SN Escrow & SC discussion)

[ChiBitCTy]

As an FA who got in finance to fight from within a corrupt world, to truly help people, I took to bitcoin back in 2013-14 when I discovered it, especially when I was learning how corrupt big banks truly were/are at that very same time ( I wish one CNBC host had the balls to say to Jamie next time he calls BTC a scam, “what about Chase under your leadership. From 2000-2006 JPM had roughly 6M in fraud violations. When you took over in 06, to today…”). Look where that number stands now- https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/jpmorgan-chase . Think that’s bad, check out BOA.

Anyways, Outside of btc’s potential to change the world, at least IMO at the time,
I also was and am beyond fascinated w SNs Escrow proposal. I’ve posted about it before here, esp after Szabo told me he “believes so” when I asked if SN was referring to the use of SCs to create this proposal. GMax has shared w/me why this proposal hadn’t (still hasn’t?) come to fruition. The sheer time coding up such a revolutionary financial programing proposal using cryptography is what I believe to be the equivalent to btc’s solving of DS and true decentralization.  Hashcash, Bit-Gold , Ripple (not then XRP) etc had all been proposed years before SN finally cracked the code.

I’m assuming the SN 2party escrow proposal “answers” ( ex https://www.comsys.rwth-aachen.de/fileadmin/papers/2019/2019-wagner-dispute.pdf  ) that have been created thus far are the equivalent to what HashC, Bit-G etc were trying to achieve. Greg, Achow and I know a few others here can confirm this one way or another and would LOVE an update, if possible 🙏

On to what I’ve shared here a few times over the years but still never been given a definitive “yes, you busted him out here” or “no, you didn’t because..”

So, id love to put this to bed once and for all.. (any feedback is greatly appreciated).

“We are all SN, except for CW” 😁

FYI I was baiting him here, and purposely trying to sound completely lost and like a moron, a tactic learned from Sasha B.C. who explained how pretending to be a complete ignoranous will help put one’s guard down if they believe you are that. Respkt!

[gmaxwell]

It's been implemented, you can setup these kinds of escrows just using bitcoin core and have been able to for years.  It's just another application of multisignature, which is what P2SH was created to make it easy to pay into without special software support.

There have been commercial services based on making these kinds of transactions-- e.g. Bitrated.

The reality is that the demand for it in practice is pretty negligible.  The issue is that if people think the transaction is at risk they just don't trade.  If they think it is not at risk then they don't bother taking actions to secure it.

It's not supremely user friendly to do these kind of multiparty transactions in bitcoin core but that itself is just a product of demand.

As far as Wright goes, he mostly speaks in vague truisms specifically to avoid getting caught out.  So for example Satoshi says that he didn't have time to implement it-- Wright says in there since day 1.  But if you try to nail wright to a cross on this he'll just say that he meant the potential was in there as part of the design.

[ChiBitCTy]

It's been implemented, you can setup these kinds of escrows just using bitcoin core and have been able to for years.  It's just another application of multisignature, which is what P2SH was created to make it easy to pay into without special software support.

There have been commercial services based on making these kinds of transactions-- e.g. Bitrated.

The reality is that the demand for it in practice is pretty negligible.  The issue is that if people think the transaction is at risk they just don't trade.  If they think it is not at risk then they don't bother taking actions to secure it.

It's not supremely user friendly to do these kind of multiparty transactions in bitcoin core but that itself is just a product of demand.

As far as Wright goes, he mostly speaks in vague truisms specifically to avoid getting caught out.  So for example Satoshi says that he didn't have time to implement it-- Wright says in there since day 1.  But if you try to nail wright to a cross on this he'll just say that he meant the potential was in there as part of the design.

GMax, thank you!!!

For what it’s worth, you more than have “done your part” (and then some)…Referring to when you were brought up in that worthless btc doc HBO released “recently”.  Over the years you’ve been extremely helpful and engaging w/me personally and it means more than I could ever express.  You’re a true freedom fighter and stand for righteousness above all..thank you, for everything. Fuck the haters/trolls.

I enjoy your photography btw. Clearly a fellow plant/animal lover.

Cheers.

[Mia Chloe]

~snip

I pretty much Love your story It's awesome how you got into finance to actually help people and then Bitcoin simultaneously clicked for you because of all the banking corruption you saw. Honestly  the Notes were an extreme failure to the banking system. So sad the bank stylishly used notes to replace Gold, silver and other valuable forms of money back then.

That JPM link is wild makes Jamie Dimon's "scam" talk sound pretty hollow. Hopefully, folks like Greg or Achow can give us an update on where it stands.

[Ucy]

Smart-contract simply requires reaching an agreement that gets verified and approved to recieve locked or inaccessible product or service. This process mostly happens automatically, like vending machine — you slot in the right amount of money it automatically gives you the product you paid for.

SN proposal is what's typically described as escrow because the verification, approval and service are manually done.  So, it's not considered smart when it's more manual and less automatic.
 Automation is easier within a system/machine with set contract and smart-contract that checks that everything is done according to the contracts . But we remain at the escrow-like level due to need for manual or human verifications and approvals of  services/products that are either outside of the system of the smart contract or/and can't be automatically verified by smart-contract.

A decentralized Bitcoin smart contract would be implemented in a decentralized Bitcoin virtual machine (like vending machine) that unlocks a product/service after it verifies that the right payment has been sent to it.

If there is a proper inbuilt smart-contract or escrow that CW was probably talking about we would be using it by now

[OgNasty]

It's been implemented, you can setup these kinds of escrows just using bitcoin core and have been able to for years.  It's just another application of multisignature, which is what P2SH was created to make it easy to pay into without special software support.

There have been commercial services based on making these kinds of transactions-- e.g. Bitrated.

The reality is that the demand for it in practice is pretty negligible.  The issue is that if people think the transaction is at risk they just don't trade.  If they think it is not at risk then they don't bother taking actions to secure it.

It's not supremely user friendly to do these kind of multiparty transactions in bitcoin core but that itself is just a product of demand.

As far as Wright goes, he mostly speaks in vague truisms specifically to avoid getting caught out.  So for example Satoshi says that he didn't have time to implement it-- Wright says in there since day 1.  But if you try to nail wright to a cross on this he'll just say that he meant the potential was in there as part of the design.

As someone who has handled 20,000 BTC in escrowed transactions over a period of nearly 15 years I can tell you that Bitcoin's implementation of escrow was dead on arrival.  The idea that people won't act irrationally while funds are held in escrow is ridiculous.  The amount of trades I've had to manually intervene to settle differences would have cost users on this site hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars in losses and would have been enough to shake confidence in Bitcoin early on.  Bitcoin does a lot of things well.  Escrow is not one of them.  I would even say that attacks against escrow agents on this site to spread distrust and enable scammers are partially to blame for the extreme loss of economic activity on this forum.

We are all satoshi except Craig Wright.