Impact of Scrypt Asics on Litecoin and other scrypt coins

[david123]

Hi,

as this is my first post in this forum, I'll say one line about me: I started mining btc
in the good old gpu days, but I was stupid enough to sell immediately. Then I did nothing,
until in late 2013, when I rediscovered mining. So now I have 9 gpus directed at multipool.us
and one cpu doing primecoin.

I just found out today that, finally, it seems that scrypt asics became available. When I bought
my first gpu (for ltc) in nov 2013, the general opinion was something like "I believe it when I see",
earliest maybe in fall 2014 and (if available at all) only slightly more power-efficient than gpus.

Now, given my naive understanding of things, it seems that this Gridseed chip is much more revolutionary
than anticipated. This dualminer usb stick will do 70 kh for just 2-4 watts, and it's just the first
of its kind. So on the one hand, I already see difficulty going through the roof.
It's just a matter of a few weeks, until the chinese get these chips into shipping in significant numbers,
making gpu mining obsolet altogether. Although quite profitable, I really consider getting rid of my graphics cards
right now, as long as it's still possible.

On the other hand, I understand that there are people with access to free or really cheap electricity
(in comparison to where I am, Germany), for whom these devices at current price do not make
much sense. Moreover, I got to realize that people continue to discuss how to set up gpu rigs instead
of preparing for hell to break loose, so probably I'm too negative about it..?

I opened this topic because I would be happy to hear other opinions on the impact of this new chip on
- the future of gpu scrypt mining
- the general development of ltc / scrypt crypto currencies (in particular, their price)
- the parallels/differences when compared to the sha asic revolution

Best, David

[tokyoghetto]

If people want to keep gpu mining, better start making Blake256 based coins. Scrypt ASICS won't have an impact on mining because they still cost more than setting up gpus with similar hashrates. Big gpu farms will switch over to ASICS first because of running costs. Some at-home miners will switch to ASICS because of scalability and density. Once ASICS are cheaper than GPUs is when you will see the mad rush to ASICS and the final days of GPUs on Scrypt-based coins.

[Fastpow]

Quick andere to this one, vertcoin.

We'll probably see a big rise in this coin and a lot of VTC clones will probably pop up

[sakkosekk]

Quick andere to this one, vertcoin.

We'll probably see a big rise in this coin and a lot of VTC clones will probably pop up

Yeah that was what I was gonna say. I'm sure we will see many new scrypt-jane coins and coins utilizing N-factor in the time to come.

[bitwho]

Quick andere to this one, vertcoin.

We'll probably see a big rise in this coin and a lot of VTC clones will probably pop up

could you explain how is this coin "asic" scrypt resistant ?

[sakkosekk]

Quick andere to this one, vertcoin.

We'll probably see a big rise in this coin and a lot of VTC clones will probably pop up

could you explain how is this coin "asic" scrypt resistant ?

This is from the ANN-thread; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=404364.0


Where does Vertcoin fit into this?

Scrypt was utilized by Litecoin to try and deter ASIC use because large memory requirements are the best way to try and make ASIC financially unfeasible.  Litecoin held out for a while, but the original memory requirements in the barebone litecoin distribution were just not high enough to lock out ASIC completely. 

Vertcoin has now been released as the logical evolution of Litecoin and introduces what's known as "Adaptive N-Factor".  The N-factor component of Scrypt determines how much memory is required to compute the hashing functions.  Vertcoin N-factor increases with time to stay one step ahead of any possible ASIC development.

For the long, foreseeable future, GPU computing will be the fastest method of computation for Vertcoin, but CPU computation will eventually make gains as N-factor increases.


Due to the large demand for having a more ASIC proof currency ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=359323.0 ), Vertcoin was created using Litecoin as a base, and has an adaptive N-factor applied based on the timestamp of blocks generated.  Instead of using a fixed value of 10, such as Litecoin does, the Vertcoin N-factor begins at 11 and gradually increases over time using the following schedule:

| N        | Memory | Timestamp   | Date/Time                     |   |
|----------|--------|-------------|-------------------------------|---|
| 2048     | 256 kB | 1389306217  | Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:23:37 GMT |   |
| 4096     | 512 kB | 1456415081  | Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:44:41 GMT |   |
| 8192     | 1 MB   | 1506746729  | Sat, 30 Sep 2017 04:45:29 GMT |   |
| 16384    | 2 MB   | 1557078377  | Sun, 05 May 2019 17:46:17 GMT |   |
| 32768    | 4 MB   | 1657741673  | Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:47:53 GMT |   |
| 65536    | 8 MB   | 1859068265  | Tue, 28 Nov 2028 23:51:05 GMT |   |
| 131072   | 16 MB  | 2060394857  | Tue, 17 Apr 2035 03:54:17 GMT |   |
| 262144   | 32 MB  | 2463048041  | Sun, 19 Jan 2048 12:00:41 GMT |   |
| 524288   | 64 MB  | 2999918953  | Fri, 23 Jan 2065 06:49:13 GMT |   |
| 1048576  | 128 MB | 3536789865  | Wed, 28 Jan 2082 01:37:45 GMT |   |
| 2097152  | 256 MB | 5684273513  | Mon, 16 Feb 2150 04:51:53 GMT |   |
| 4194304  | 512 MB | 7831757161  | Sat, 07 Mar 2218 08:06:01 GMT |   |
| 8388608  | 1 GB   | 9979240809  | Thu, 25 Mar 2286 11:20:09 GMT |   |
| 16777216 | 2 GB   | 16421691753 | Fri, 19 May 2490 21:02:33 GMT |   |
| 33554432 | 4 GB   | 22864142697 | Sun, 15 Jul 2694 06:44:57 GMT |   |

Technical Details:
Algorithm: Scrypt-Adaptive-Nfactor (Not scrypt-jane)
Symbol :  VTC
Max Coins: 84 million vertcoins.
Block time: 2.5 minutes
Subsidy halves every 840,000 blocks (~4 years)
Difficulty Re-Target Time:  Every block with Kimotos Gravity Well algorithm
Block Rewards: 50 coins per block

[bitwho]

Quick andere to this one, vertcoin.

We'll probably see a big rise in this coin and a lot of VTC clones will probably pop up

could you explain how is this coin "asic" scrypt resistant ?

This is from the ANN-thread; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=404364.0


Where does Vertcoin fit into this?

Scrypt was utilized by Litecoin to try and deter ASIC use because large memory requirements are the best way to try and make ASIC financially unfeasible.  Litecoin held out for a while, but the original memory requirements in the barebone litecoin distribution were just not high enough to lock out ASIC completely.  

Vertcoin has now been released as the logical evolution of Litecoin and introduces what's known as "Adaptive N-Factor".  The N-factor component of Scrypt determines how much memory is required to compute the hashing functions.  Vertcoin N-factor increases with time to stay one step ahead of any possible ASIC development.

For the long, foreseeable future, GPU computing will be the fastest method of computation for Vertcoin, but CPU computation will eventually make gains as N-factor increases.


Due to the large demand for having a more ASIC proof currency ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=359323.0 ), Vertcoin was created using Litecoin as a base, and has an adaptive N-factor applied based on the timestamp of blocks generated.  Instead of using a fixed value of 10, such as Litecoin does, the Vertcoin N-factor begins at 11 and gradually increases over time using the following schedule:

| N        | Memory | Timestamp   | Date/Time                     |   |
|----------|--------|-------------|-------------------------------|---|
| 2048     | 256 kB | 1389306217  | Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:23:37 GMT |   |
| 4096     | 512 kB | 1456415081  | Thu, 25 Feb 2016 15:44:41 GMT |   |
| 8192     | 1 MB   | 1506746729  | Sat, 30 Sep 2017 04:45:29 GMT |   |
| 16384    | 2 MB   | 1557078377  | Sun, 05 May 2019 17:46:17 GMT |   |
| 32768    | 4 MB   | 1657741673  | Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:47:53 GMT |   |
| 65536    | 8 MB   | 1859068265  | Tue, 28 Nov 2028 23:51:05 GMT |   |
| 131072   | 16 MB  | 2060394857  | Tue, 17 Apr 2035 03:54:17 GMT |   |
| 262144   | 32 MB  | 2463048041  | Sun, 19 Jan 2048 12:00:41 GMT |   |
| 524288   | 64 MB  | 2999918953  | Fri, 23 Jan 2065 06:49:13 GMT |   |
| 1048576  | 128 MB | 3536789865  | Wed, 28 Jan 2082 01:37:45 GMT |   |
| 2097152  | 256 MB | 5684273513  | Mon, 16 Feb 2150 04:51:53 GMT |   |
| 4194304  | 512 MB | 7831757161  | Sat, 07 Mar 2218 08:06:01 GMT |   |
| 8388608  | 1 GB   | 9979240809  | Thu, 25 Mar 2286 11:20:09 GMT |   |
| 16777216 | 2 GB   | 16421691753 | Fri, 19 May 2490 21:02:33 GMT |   |
| 33554432 | 4 GB   | 22864142697 | Sun, 15 Jul 2694 06:44:57 GMT |   |

Technical Details:
Algorithm: Scrypt-Adaptive-Nfactor (Not scrypt-jane)
Symbol :  VTC
Max Coins: 84 million vertcoins.
Block time: 2.5 minutes
Subsidy halves every 840,000 blocks (~4 years)
Difficulty Re-Target Time:  Every block with Kimotos Gravity Well algorithm
Block Rewards: 50 coins per block

Scrypt was utilized by Litecoin to try and deter ASIC use because large memory requirements are the best way to try and make ASIC financially unfeasible.  Litecoin held out for a while, but the original memory requirements in the barebone litecoin distribution were just not high enough to lock out ASIC completely.  

Thanks for the reply but i still dont understand this... all this is doing is overloading the program to work extra hard. aka making it "twice" as hard to mine it.

therefore  a normal gpu will give around half its hash -power if you mine vertcoin. wouldn't this also apply to a asic scypt equally ?

i don't understand the rave about verticon. all it did is complicate the calculations for a gpu miner to take more time then usually.

i.e:

lets pretend i own a 1 Mh/s GPU (A) and a 1 Mh/s scrypt asic (B)

for Litecoin :
A gives me average of 1 Mh/s (WU read)
B also gives me 1 Mh/s (WU read)

for Verticon :
A gives me an average of 340 kh/s (WU read)
B also gives me 340 kh/s (WU read)


isn't this how its going to work?

[Bobsurplus]

The one thing that impresses me the most about Scrypt Asic is the ability of people to spam about a non existent vaporware.

Scrypt Asics - Theoretically possible

Economically Feasible - Not in the next few years.


~BCX~

It will be here way sooner then that! Just needed to quote you here so I can come back when I get my AlphaT's  up and running.

[david123]

Well, I'm not so sure about this vaporware thing.. Now they are not only theoretically possible, a few
lucky ones already have one at home. And at .4 BTC for 350 kh/s, they might well break even, given
stable prices and free electricity. Although, I agree, I will not buy at this price. You can get that hashing
power from a .12 gpu (if you buy smart) and then you can squeeze this out with electricity for less than .28 and
resell it, makes more sense.. But, on the other hand, asics tend to have high resale prices as well.
hmm, not so easy what to do...

[jasinlee]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=400389.msg4332643#msg4332643 Cachecoin we will be accepting since it has no premine/instamine. It is also Scrypt-Jane, but not premined like vertcoin.

[BrewCrewFan]

The one thing that impresses me the most about Scrypt Asic is the ability of people to spam about a non existent vaporware.

Scrypt Asics - Theoretically possible

Economically Feasible - Not in the next few years.


~BCX~

Me and you agree on something...."looks outside to see if hell froze"... well where I live it is frozen at this time of year sooo.....

mhhhh

[jongameson]

If people want to keep gpu mining, better start making Blake256 based coins. Scrypt ASICS won't have an impact on mining because they still cost more than setting up gpus with similar hashrates. Big gpu farms will switch over to ASICS first because of running costs. Some at-home miners will switch to ASICS because of scalability and density. Once ASICS are cheaper than GPUs is when you will see the mad rush to ASICS and the final days of GPUs on Scrypt-based coins.

blah blibbity blah..  asics rule.  gpu sucks.  u don't even want to GO to cpu.  they suck even worse than a donkeys dick

[marquix]

The one thing that impresses me the most about Scrypt Asic is the ability of people to spam about a non existent vaporware.

Scrypt Asics - Theoretically possible

Economically Feasible - Not in the next few years.


~BCX~

It will be here way sooner then that! Just needed to quote you here so I can come back when I get my AlphaT's  up and running.

do you have any news about AphaTs' delivery status (or rather -willingness)?? Currently a bit confused about the news coming out of Britain...