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Author Topic: updated no bounty for pointing out logic mistakes on this thread.  (Read 3823 times)
murraypaul
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June 12, 2014, 08:38:36 AM
 #41

It seems certain to me that with a body found less than a day after death scientists must be able to pinpoint to within 15 minutes or less.

You are massively out on that.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
Quote
"Whatever method is used to calculate the estimated time since death from body temperature, all
the variable factors must be taken into account to modify any basic formula, though this
adjustment is very arbitrary and can only be attempted in the light of previous experience. When
a "favoured" time of death is decided upon this should never be offered to the investigating
authorities as a single point in time. It must be used to construct a "bracket of probability",
giving an earliest and latest time between which the doctor feels that death must have occurred.
The width of this time bracket will depend upon the number and uncertainty of the variable
factors known to the doctor and is likely to be longer the more remote the death was from the
time of examination of the corpse. It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour,
even when the death was quite recent. A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of
death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a
severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule, thus denegrating the
rest of his evidence
". (Ref. 10 at p. 12.)

I'd be very surprised if the estimate could be better than a two hour window.

The child was very small, I believe 7 years, so well under 100 pounds. Heat would have dissipated very quickly and fluctuations in room temperature might have made that method usrlrss.

However the body is full of countless chemicals that are in a constant state of reaction, enzymes etc. With all the research that has been done there is little doubt that there is a quick test to take a sample and determine when the last reaction of a particular time happened.

So you should be able to point us to what that test is then?

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I cannot believe temperature would be used for anything other than a ballpark. Again, it would be the height of incompetence or backwardness if even a college chemistry major could not take time of death down to 15 minutes in a body that is less than a day.

The two hour window you cite would not even be acceptable in a third world country 50 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what actually is. Point us to a source which backs that up.

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murraypaul
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June 13, 2014, 07:52:14 AM
 #42

So measuring backwards from discovery of the body to death might not yield precise information, or it might, there are other methods. But working forward from last meal to time of death, in this case, probably would have taken it down to ten minutes or so with much more than 90% certainty.

You say, with no scientific experience or knowledge to back it up?

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So the medical expert says only that she died before 7am on April 1, but she could have died as early as 7am on March 31. In other words she could have died 7 hours before she even disappeared? Something very not right with how no one, not even reporters, question nonsensical evidence and testimony.

Because time of death calculations are extremely inaccurate, as we have been telling you.

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It does not prove anything but it is one more indication that the accused is probably innocent and one or more of the roommates may be guilty.

Only to you, not to anyone else.
You seem so desperate for this result to be wrong that you are just making science up as you go along.

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murraypaul
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June 13, 2014, 09:18:07 PM
 #43

Would you agree that the fact that she could have died 24 hours after disappearing, according to the medical examiner, means that there was not the slightest trace of food anywhere near the top of her digestive tract?

No. I'm not a medical examiner, and am not qualified to say that. I'm pretty sure you aren't either.

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Harley997
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June 13, 2014, 11:34:50 PM
 #44

Would you agree that the fact that she could have died 24 hours after disappearing, according to the medical examiner, means that there was not the slightest trace of food anywhere near the top of her digestive tract?

No. I'm not a medical examiner, and am not qualified to say that. I'm pretty sure you aren't either.

As much as I have enjoyed debating the subject with you, ICE, it seems like you have somewhat of a closed mind.

Are you related to any of the parties in this case? Do you have another conflict of interest?

It is important to remember that anything that a lawyer says should not be treated as evidence nor as testimony, the lawyers are simply trying to help the jury reach a particular conclusion based on the facts provided by the witnesses.

I have noticed that you say "I think..." or otherwise give an explanation to evidence against Mr Met. However this appears to be speculation and not backed up by facts. Even when one person quoted an article regarding determining time of death that said any doctor that tried to pinpoint time of death in a range of time less then in one-hour increments would be subject to ridicule, you still said that there would be a way to pinpoint the time of death. Regardless of possible methods of determining this, the time of death was not proven at trial.

It should be noted that a medical professional can only look at the science/medicine of the situation, not what other people have said. The fact that the girl was alive at a certain time is only know due to witness testimony, if the jury believes both witnesses then they can conclude a shorter possible period that the girl could have died.

One thing that I would like to point out is that on the comments on one of the articles, one poster called Mr. Met's attorney a scumbag for defending him, and another posting pointed out that he was just doing his job to see that he received due process. This is not evidence but is something that I wanted to point out.

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Harley997
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June 14, 2014, 04:16:29 PM
 #45

murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

Without knowing exactly what the girl ate, and the exact quantities these measurements would be useless.

Another issue is that witnesses cannot rely on testimony from other witnesses. A doctor cannot say "since according to the girls mom the girl had a banana sandwich at 11:30 therefore based on what was in her stomach she had to have died at 3:15" The doctor can only testify to what her can independently scientifically verify.

I did not see anything about the level of anything in her body food related in any of the articles in the girl's body. I believe that the medial examiner testified that his professional opinion was that the girl died within a certain time frame. This time frame is within when Mr Met could have killed her.

You implied that when the girl disappeared she had food in her body that was being digested for two hours. How do you know this? Do you base this on the fact that lunch time is usually noon and she disappeared around 2 PM? Many people eat their meals at varying times throughout the day. It would be very plausible that she ate breakfast at 7 AM and her parents realized she was missing because they were going to eat lunch at 2:15 PM. Or maybe she did not eat breakfast and was about to eat lunch when she disappeared. Regardless this issue was not in dispute at trial so it is not an issue.

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Harley997
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June 15, 2014, 02:54:36 AM
 #46

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The fact that the medical examiner did not identify that, and it seems he did not, indicates either he made a mistake or Met is innocent.

Unless he is specifically asked then about food in her system then the medical examiner would not disclose if there was food in her system or not.

Additionally food being in her system would not help provide a time of death, because, again a medical professional cannot use testimony by others to help form his own opinion.

I am not sure why a medical examiner would even check for food in her system. Based on his other testimony the medical examiner was able to determine the cause of death with a good amount of certainty and it was clear that she didn't die because of something she ate.

I would ask this question again, do you have some kind of bias in this case?

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Harley997
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June 15, 2014, 05:45:29 AM
 #47

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The food issue has nothing to do with being poisoned.

She was playing outside shortly before she disappeared and a news article says she would go inside occasionally to get a drink of something, juice, soda, whatever.

Again the medical examiner cannot rely on other testimony, nor information from others when making his conclusion. If he is able to find both the time and cause of death then he would have no reason to go looking in the stomach for evidence of food.

The medical examiner would have no way of knowing that she would go inside to get a drink.

On that subject even if she did occasionally go inside to get a drink of some sort does not mean that she did that day.

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In addition it seems likely that she had food in the hours before disappearing.

Why do you say that?

Quote
The prosecutor says mr Met killed her within an hour of when she disappeared then took a bus to visit his aunt and uncle. It is known for sure that Met had to leave by a certain time to catch that bus, but he actually probably even left sooner, being a new refugee who didn't speak English.

Again the prosecutor is not providing testimony he is merely trying to get the jury to make a conclusion based on the facts that were presented by witnesses.

Why would he leave sooner? I believe that he had been there for 30 days when he was arrested. I would think that he would be able to navigate his way to the bus station after being someplace for that long. If he was going someplace new then maybe, but the bus station is unlikely.

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If he killed her then it means she died within an hour or so of consuming something and probably within a few hours of consuming a snack or a meal. So if he killed her then she would have easy to find traces of what she consumed. Chemicals from the juice or soda, specific amino acids from a particular meal further down the intestines, a certain level of certain things in her blood etc.

If she died later that day then there would be far less to find. At the outside limit of when the medical person said death could have occured it would have bren very hard for a person to find evidence of the last meal without a lot of tests.

If the medical examiner had found traces of food in her system that would be equivalent in importance to, for example, finding a murder weapon or a picture from the time the crime occured. He did not find any food, evidently. In other words all of the liquid and food the child had consumed previously had already gone far enough that he didn't feel like doing tests to figure out what it was.

Again this is outside the scope of what the medical examiner's job is to do. All that they should be doing is to determine the cause of death and the approximate time of death as defined by clock time. They do not try to determine how much time had passed since they had last ate, especially if poison is not believed to be involved.

Not only that but the medical examiner would likely conduct his investigation shortly after the body was found and many facts would not be available to him at the time of his investigation. His investigation was possibly complete prior to Mr Met's alibi was put into question. He would certainly not know anything about how often she would get juice when she plays outside.

Quote
All that means is that the victim died at least quite a few hours after disappearing, not one hour, as would be if Met had been the murderer.

Your timeline of her dying several hours after she disappeared would not fit in with the other facts. The time between when she disappeared and when Mr Met would have likely left for the bus station is too great for this to make sense. If Mr Met was in his apartment prior to leaving for the bus station then she would have had to be held somewhere else prior to Mr Met leaving. This would mean that whoever the killer was would have had to moved a missing, girl that was likely screaming from one location to Mr Mets apartment. There was blood of hers found in the bathroom so it is likely that she died in the bathroom.

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One article says that the police went through the complex twice knocking on doors. The first time they got a response at every single door in the apartment complex except the one where the body was, and where the roommates were at that time. That is perhaps coincidental and circumstantial, but if the child died at least several hours after disappearing it couldmean she was still alive when someone decided to skip that apartment after knocking a few times. Remember, they are looking for a missing young girl and every other apartment eventually someone came to the door except that one. It might be a little awkward for the cop who skipped that door considering the child was there and she may have been alive.

The father did knock on the door at 7PM the day she disappeared, the roommates said that they had not seen her. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57411054-78/met-hser-moo-ner.html.csp

The same article says that the police knocked on their apartment at 4 AM. If someone knocked at my door that early in the morning I would probably not hear it, and if I did I would probably not answer.

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There is also the issue of the blood stain found where one or more roommates lived. The dna expert chose not to collect a sample because it was near a betel juice spit cup and blood is a similar color to betelnut spit. So there was probably a fresh blood stain upstairs. It could be that one of the roommates accidentally cut himself at the same time the child disappeared. It might be or it might not be. A lot of the evidence in different articles is poorly presented or I am not able to make clear sense of it, but that is how it looks to me.

You are drawing a conclusion from facts that are not there. It is not fair to say that there was blood elsewhere in the apartment where the roommates lived, but rather that parts of the apartment were not checked. It should also be noted that the jury did not read what was said in the articles, they only relied on testimony given by witnesses, information presented poorly in articles does not change the facts nor does it allow facts to be put into question. It would also be possible that what the DNA expert saw was simply beatlnut spit.

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You ask if I have bias in this case. What are you looking for? Do I sympathize with child rapists or murderers? Not if they are guilty, but again, he does not look guilty in fact, he only looks guilty in the jury's decision. Do I sympathize with refugees? In this case yes because I was raised on some stories like this.

It sounds like to me that you are giving too much weight to evidence that may show he is not guilty, and is reaching conclusions based on facts that were not presented but are instead speculation.

The precedent in court cases is to accept the level of detail used when determining the time of death, but instead you wish to want a more precise time of death.

You assume that professionals (most/all of them) make mistake of fact when they testify as an expert witness.

You accept what the lawyers say as testimony of fact. You accept what the defense lawyer says without question wile questioning the detail of what the prosecution says.

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I could ask, do you not see the problem with potentially convicting the wrong person for this crime, aside from the obvious issue of injustice?

I would not wish for someone to be convicted for a crime they did not commit. With that being said I think he did commit the crime.

It really goes back to the fact that it was not testified that other DNA was found under her fingernails. Again if the defense lawyer knows that the answer would be damaging to his case then he would not ask the question.

Even his own attorney said that Mr Mets distrust of the legal system caused him to not admit to the crime.

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Harley997
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June 16, 2014, 04:39:20 AM
 #48

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1)The simple fact that he would be innocent if she had any detectable food residue must be excluded, you say, because the medical examiner cannot provide any information based on evidence provided by police or others. That is doubtful. You sound like a police officer trying to confuse two different reasons for excluding evidence in order to justify being granted the right to use both, based on this and other of your comments.

Some evidence must be excluded. The confession, if it were accepted, would allow all police in the future to simply extract confessions of dubious merit without regard for the innocent. This has not worked well in other countries when it has been tried nor in the United States when some douche scum cop decides to play Columbo and solve crimes that way.

This is simply how witness testimony works. A witness cannot say that x police officer told me so and so. This would violate Mr Met's constitutional rights to confront his accuser. Mr Met would not be able to try to find holes in the police officer's story if it is being told by someone else.

The medical examiner would have no reason to know that juice in the girls system could be of any importance.

Again all the medical examiner's job is to determine how the victim died and the time of death, as measured in at a minimum a range of hours prior to when the body was found. Any detail above that is outside the scope of the medical examiner's job.

The medical examiner is a neutral witness. He did not say who he though killed the girl. He only said how she died and when she died. It just so happens that the facts that he presented show that Mr. Met is guilty.

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2) One article specifically says that shortly before she died she was playing outside and would go inside from time to time to drink some juice.

Again not reliant. See above regarding the medical examiner's job

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3) Why would it be likely a child that age in America would likely have food, or its residue, visible somewhere in her system? Honestly, I've answered that. It is common sense.

Again not reliant, see #1. It was actually not testified if the girl had food in her system or not. Just because it was not discussed at trial does not mean that she did not have food in her system. As per above it is not the medical exanimer's job to make that determination.

As you have previously said, Mr Met was likely poor, and refugees like the girl were likely poor, and it would be very well fees-able that  that her family was not able to afford breakfast and that she would eat lunch at a time after she disappeared but regardless does not matter as it was not discussed at trial. If this was something of controversy then the defense attorney should have brought it up. If the defense attorney should have brought it up but didn't then Mr. Met should have appealed on the basis that he had incompetent council (attorney) but he did not.

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4) Buses are unreliable in their timing in every country. In America they may be late but they will never leave early, that is true, but Met had been here 30 days and would not know that.
He would likely understand the bus schedule and when the bus arrives after a few bus trips. It would be very reasonable for him to know when the bus will arrive.

Although your argument is not acceptable, if you were to accept your argument that Mr. Met arrived at the bus station early by 15 minutes he would still have had plenty of time based on the latest time that the girl disappeared. She disappeared at 2 PM at the latest, and Mr Met could have left at 2:39 at the latest minus 15 minutes is 2:34.

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5) Mr Met's alibi was never 'put into question'. It is dry fact that he could not have been at the apartment more than an hour after the child disappeared. If he claims to have left early that is being excluded.

This is correct as his alibi simply says that it is possible that he committed the crime. The medical examiner would have no way of knowing that the time in dispute would come down to 15 or 30 minutes. Regardless, science would not allow him to make a determination of time of death within 30 minutes. Your point only points to him being guilty.

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6) You are basing her time of death on when Met left the apartment despite any other evidence. In other words you are not looking at the evidence, you are simply starting with the jury's opinion and building on that.

Your statement is not correct. The medical examiner gave a range of time as to when the girl died. The range of time included the time that Mr Met was at the apartment. As in every criminal trial the defense has the opportunity to hire it's own expert witness to dispute what the medical examiner testified to and did not do so (the defense did not have an expert testify as to when the girl died, so they either did not hire an expert or they did hire an expert and their expert came to the same conclusion).

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7) Where the girl died and when she died are both in question. As mentioned several times already, a fresh blood stain was found in another part of the apartment but the dna expert never tested it because he thought it was betel nut juice spit. If that stain were shown to contain the victim's dna then mr Met would not have been convicted, even by that simple jury. Was it her dna? We simply do not know because it is one of the many examples of lazy police work in this case. Some people want the police to have all sorys of powers against innocent people but they don't want to force the police to do their actual jobs, specifically doing po.ice work properly.

You are saying there was a blood stain. Was there any evidence to say so? The only testimonial presented said that it looked like what could have been blood but was near a beatlenut juice spit cup and was likely beatlenut juice.

I have not seen any articles that say anything about the defense disputing this fact. Unless the defense attempted to get the DNA evidence excluded because of the beatlejuice there is absolutely no dispute in fact as to what it was. Even if they tried unsuccessfully to get the evidence thrown out the legal conclusion was that there was not issue with not testing this.

If you wish to put this in question then please see my previous post regarding how each piece of evidence may show a 40% chance that he was not guilty, but all the evidence him combined showed a 97%+ chance of being guilty

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8 -  Fine that you would not answer the door at that hour. This was 4 or so guys in an apartment that may have been unlocked, the neighbors would know there were people there, it would be noisy outside, a child had disappeared from another apartment within a certain distance from theirs, the child was known by the people to be friendly with one person there, and it was the only apartment in the entire apartment complex where no one answered the door. You can say the police who knocked on the door did not know this or that, but again it gets back to basic competence. If the cop did not know those things whoever was in charge on site needs to be put out of charge. We need to stop excusing such blatant incompeyence and laziness by cops as well as their other abuses of powe.

You say the door may have been unlocked. There was no testimony that said it was unlocked the day in question. Even if it was unlocked there was only a 1/5 chance that the killer would have picked an area that he controlled (4 roommates plus him is 5 people living in the apartment). My previous example gave a 40% chance of evidence showing he was not guilty this example shows a 20% chance which works against him. Not only that but he "Happened" to be spending the night away from his apartment the same day that a girl was found dead in an area of his apartment, this is really an additional piece of evidence that was not previously listed.

At 4 AM it is likely that people were not congregating outside. If they had answered they would likely spoken to the police and gone back to sleep. I did not ready any articles that said that every other neighbor had answered the door. A non-response to a door knock should not be unusual to the police, this could mean a number of things, that the tenants were not home (out of town), that the apartment was vacant, at work,  or simply sleeping. On a similar note I would doubt that every single apartment was occupied at that time. Obviously the vacant apartments would not have received a response. Additionally it is not illegal to not answer your door when someone knocks.

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) The dna stain that was never tested is not something I conjured up. From a news article:

I stand corrected on point 7, however it was ultimately determined that this was not sufficient to exclude at trial and not sufficient for a mistrial. If the judge had made an error of law in these ruling then it would have been overturned on appeal.

There was still no evidence to show whose blood it was upstairs. The articles do not say that it was the girls nor do they say it was not her's. As a result as per the rules of evidence you cannot assume that it was her blood and you cannot imply that it was anyone's.

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murraypaul
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June 16, 2014, 12:16:33 PM
 #49

murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

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The child did consume juice or something briefly before disappearing and perhaps food too. Regardless, if traces of whastever she consumed are findable Met might be the killer, if no traces of what she consumed can be found he is excluded as a suspect. Was there food residue in her gut? We do not know. It seems negligent of both the medical examiner and the defense team not to have gone into that point. However there is a small indication of time of death aside from the medical examiner's testimony.

(And many other examples)

Have you seen the medical report?
Have you read the trial transcript?
Do you know what the witnesses actually said, not the snippets that have been reported?
How can you possibly say that the ME or lawyer are negligent when you have no idea what actually went on in the court room?

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June 16, 2014, 04:59:01 PM
 #50

murray paul an harly, back up a minute.

Is it possible that the child had food in the time before she disappeared and in the one hour window that might paint Met as the accused all of the food completely disappeared to the dame degree it would have after 36 hours?

It makes no sense.

Food does not go from two hours digrsted to 36 hours suddenly. Each type of food contains things that can be measured in the stomache, intestines, blood etc. The medical examiner basically said the child did not die during the time before mr Met was known to be gone, unless the parents were starving her, very unlikely.

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The child did consume juice or something briefly before disappearing and perhaps food too. Regardless, if traces of whastever she consumed are findable Met might be the killer, if no traces of what she consumed can be found he is excluded as a suspect. Was there food residue in her gut? We do not know. It seems negligent of both the medical examiner and the defense team not to have gone into that point. However there is a small indication of time of death aside from the medical examiner's testimony.

(And many other examples)

Have you seen the medical report?
Have you read the trial transcript?
Do you know what the witnesses actually said, not the snippets that have been reported?
How can you possibly say that the ME or lawyer are negligent when you have no idea what actually went on in the court room?


There is contradictory information in news articles but when different reporters from different news companies each report a consistent pattern of sloppy police work and poor work by lawyers,then it probably reflects something.

Normally that they are all just repeating the same story they got from a wire service, or from a shared local stringer.

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I am looking for a way to find the trial transcript at a reasonable price and if it is consistent with the news articles on the case will present a more accurate case to the public, at the expense of the various scum who shortcut justice in Utah's hillbilly heartland.

But still, it is good to see you have an open mind about the case.

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murraypaul
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June 18, 2014, 09:07:28 AM
 #51

The document used to arrest or charge the defendant is available online. It states that Hser Ner Moo, the victim, was clutching short black hairs when her body was found and had similar hairs on her abdomen, and then goes on to state that the accused has short black hair. "Additionally, Hser Ner Moo had short black hairs clutched in her right hand ... The defendant has short black hair" This information is from immediately after the body was found and its weight would be pending dna tests. That information is not used again by the prosecution, so it is fair to assume this evidence did not point to mr Met

In which case the prosecution are required to hand that information over to the defence, who can use it at trial.
Was it used at trial by the defence? Was it used by the prosecution, for that matter?
You don't know, because you haven't read the transcript, and don't know what actually happened.

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murraypaul
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June 18, 2014, 07:59:50 PM
 #52

It is fair to assume that news articles would contain that information if it were used at trial.

No, it isn't.
Trials are days after days of evidence.
A news article is a couple of paragraphs. They can't possibly include all of the evidence that was given.

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