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Author Topic: The Wall Street Myth  (Read 2449 times)
gog1
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September 16, 2014, 01:35:35 AM
 #21

I think he has a valid point

ultimately it's their loss though

it's actually more risky to wait until bitcoin has already established itself, rather than taking a certain profit now.

but that's not the way investors think.

it's ok, it'll be the tech geek's / common man's equalizer to wall st and chance of rising from the poor.  Hopefully by the time they get in, they are no longer the dominant force that it currently is in the financial market.
gog1
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September 16, 2014, 01:47:12 AM
 #22

I think this is absolutely correct:

Quote
If we shift our focus from finding the next group of speculators to finding the next killer use case, the future will undoubtedly be bright for Bitcoin.

I've posted this a few different times in different threads, but I think it's interesting to speculate about the use case of buying gasoline at the pump.  There is massive potential upside to this case, as it is a very low margin item for c-store operators, and they are paying in the neighborhood of 4% on transaction fees.  Gas is something many people buy a lot of and buy frequently.  If the credit card processors could be cut out, there is almost 4% to spread between the c-store operators and the consumers. 

The downsides include: speed of confirmation with BTC, rules regarding taxation (would technically have to book the capital gain/loss at every transaction, I think), lack of infrastructure at the pump in terms of BTC-native solutions.  I mean, I could buy with CoinFueled or Qora right now, but that doesn't actually save the c-store operator the processing fee. 

Partial solution would include equipping pump with a BTC wallet or some other native BTC-enabled system.  Maybe one of Draper's VC army could get to work on building/selling a BTC-enabled gas pump to sell to c-store owners.  But is there enough consumer demand that 2% of all BTC-for-gas purchases would pay for that hardware? 

Bottom line, if I could buy gas with BTC, I would likely do it.  I would also immediately replenish my BTC supply, just about every time, with a little bit of possible price arbitrage.  If I thought I could buy cheaper before my next fill up, I might wait a few days.  Especially if I could get a discount on the gas, it would be worth it. 

But we're REALLY far away from this use case right now.  The only use case that works, so far, is buying something online (computers, travel) that may not ship for 24 hours. 

Note: there is nothing special about this use case, other than the fact that it represents something people commonly do, not online, and not mirroring the use cases that exist.  I just find it to be a good mental exercise that helps me understand how far away we are from BTC becoming used consistently and frequently as a currency.

Once upon a time, the listed price at the "local" computer store is cash price.  If one were to pay with credit card, you will have a 3% surcharge.  Then e-commerce becomes popularize, and unfortunately, the best way to pay online is credit card.  The cash price discount / credit card surcharge disappears.  Given that, you would be very dumb to use cash to buy stuff - you are paying the same price but get certain protection with credit card, pay maybe 1.5 months later depending on the billing cycle, loyalty points, etc.

People make a point that BTC save retailers money, maybe, but will they pass it on to the consumers or they'll just pocket it themselves?

In this world, it's always the rich ripping off the poor, and the super-rich ripping off the rich ........

But I applaud you for your creative thinking.
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September 16, 2014, 02:18:45 AM
 #23

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The motto for Wall Street has always been to find an edge - an arbitrage model, a high frequency algo, a long/short pair trade, credit vs. equity, offsetting risk to retail investors, fundamental analysis, event-driven plays etc - and then to lever up and trade on that edge. Rinse and repeat.

Quote
Everything they knew and everything I was able to explain about Bitcoin didn’t fit that mode of operations at all. The proposition sounded like Wall Street was supposed to buy coins next because they were sophisticated enough to understand Bitcoin and its potential and had the capital at hand to speculate on it.

…And they were supposed to do that with 100% cash on no leverage, and then just park the bitcoins and bank on the next wave of adoption and investors to come.

Quote
In essence, Wall Street will be there when Bitcoin is big enough for them to take their cut or ‘edge’ on the daily trading volumes. They will be there to provide liquidity and offer various investment vehicles. They are not going to be a pawn in the Bitcoin enthusiasts’ plan - as a source of significant speculative capital to pump Bitcoin up another 10x.

from: http://jackcliu.com/post/97546140332/why-wall-street-has-yet-to-enter-bitcoin


There's this persistent idea that "Wall Street" is going to "drive the next bubble". Alternatively that idea is expressed as "once big money arrives" (we're going to the moon).

Just finished reading this post by Jack C. Liu, and I wanted to share it here because it puts into not-too-many words what I've been thinking myself for a long time now: don't count on Wall Street to drive the next price jump.

I'm sure you will (correctly) point out that this Liu guy is just another dude with an opinion. Absolutely true. I'm not claiming this post is interesting because of deep insider knowledge. It is interesting in my opinion because it makes sense.

Let me know what you think.

I agree w the article.  I used to work in wall street and i know a lot of guys who manage hedge funds.

Most of the guys I know are pretty smart.  Like ivy league w degrees in financial engineering.

Most bitcoiners get the economics wrong.  VCs only invested in companies like Coinbase.  Doesnt matter the price cause coinbase make money as a dealer

Hedge funds make money from hedging.  Wall street doesnt operate how this forum thinks
vuduchyld
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September 16, 2014, 03:14:27 AM
 #24

I think this is absolutely correct:

Quote
If we shift our focus from finding the next group of speculators to finding the next killer use case, the future will undoubtedly be bright for Bitcoin.

I've posted this a few different times in different threads, but I think it's interesting to speculate about the use case of buying gasoline at the pump.  There is massive potential upside to this case, as it is a very low margin item for c-store operators, and they are paying in the neighborhood of 4% on transaction fees.  Gas is something many people buy a lot of and buy frequently.  If the credit card processors could be cut out, there is almost 4% to spread between the c-store operators and the consumers. 

The downsides include: speed of confirmation with BTC, rules regarding taxation (would technically have to book the capital gain/loss at every transaction, I think), lack of infrastructure at the pump in terms of BTC-native solutions.  I mean, I could buy with CoinFueled or Qora right now, but that doesn't actually save the c-store operator the processing fee. 

Partial solution would include equipping pump with a BTC wallet or some other native BTC-enabled system.  Maybe one of Draper's VC army could get to work on building/selling a BTC-enabled gas pump to sell to c-store owners.  But is there enough consumer demand that 2% of all BTC-for-gas purchases would pay for that hardware? 

Bottom line, if I could buy gas with BTC, I would likely do it.  I would also immediately replenish my BTC supply, just about every time, with a little bit of possible price arbitrage.  If I thought I could buy cheaper before my next fill up, I might wait a few days.  Especially if I could get a discount on the gas, it would be worth it. 

But we're REALLY far away from this use case right now.  The only use case that works, so far, is buying something online (computers, travel) that may not ship for 24 hours. 

Note: there is nothing special about this use case, other than the fact that it represents something people commonly do, not online, and not mirroring the use cases that exist.  I just find it to be a good mental exercise that helps me understand how far away we are from BTC becoming used consistently and frequently as a currency.

Once upon a time, the listed price at the "local" computer store is cash price.  If one were to pay with credit card, you will have a 3% surcharge.  Then e-commerce becomes popularize, and unfortunately, the best way to pay online is credit card.  The cash price discount / credit card surcharge disappears.  Given that, you would be very dumb to use cash to buy stuff - you are paying the same price but get certain protection with credit card, pay maybe 1.5 months later depending on the billing cycle, loyalty points, etc.

People make a point that BTC save retailers money, maybe, but will they pass it on to the consumers or they'll just pocket it themselves?

In this world, it's always the rich ripping off the poor, and the super-rich ripping off the rich ........

But I applaud you for your creative thinking.

I agree with your main point, absolutely.  Still, I think one of the big advantages to BTC are the low transaction costs.  The charges are 4% froth in the system.  Whether store owners would pass it on or keep it, I don't know.  I suspect, though, that somewhere there are advantages to the efficiency.  IF we could overcome some other obstacles.
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September 16, 2014, 04:51:08 AM
 #25

i think the infusion that will get it going and probably has already begun is that from the gold and silver community.  with an estimated $7T in gold reserves worldwide, just a small infusion will jack the BTC price to a level that will make the world sit up and notice.
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September 16, 2014, 07:25:19 AM
 #26

Just finished reading this post by Jack C. Liu, and I wanted to share it here because it puts into not-too-many words what I've been thinking myself for a long time now: don't count on Wall Street to drive the next price jump.

Exactly, next price boom will be Argentina.

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September 16, 2014, 07:31:41 AM
 #27

i think the infusion that will get it going and probably has already begun is that from the gold and silver community.  with an estimated $7T in gold reserves worldwide, just a small infusion will jack the BTC price to a level that will make the world sit up and notice.

I have to agree. I think more and more goldbugs will convert to bitcoin.

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arnuschky
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September 16, 2014, 10:48:57 AM
 #28

i think the infusion that will get it going and probably has already begun is that from the gold and silver community.  with an estimated $7T in gold reserves worldwide, just a small infusion will jack the BTC price to a level that will make the world sit up and notice.

I have to agree. I think more and more goldbugs will convert to bitcoin.

I doubt it. For most people, gold is a secure holding because it's not dependent on anything.
Switching over to bitcoin, which depends on computers, math, and the internet (thus, big complex systems
that the average gold-holder does not understand or has any control over) is highly unlikely IMHO.
twiifm
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September 16, 2014, 10:54:49 AM
 #29

i think the infusion that will get it going and probably has already begun is that from the gold and silver community.  with an estimated $7T in gold reserves worldwide, just a small infusion will jack the BTC price to a level that will make the world sit up and notice.

I have to agree. I think more and more goldbugs will convert to bitcoin.

Goldbugs hate bitcoin.  When its convenient bitbugs throw around metallism or Peter Schiff.  Thats about the only similarity between these 2 groups
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