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Author Topic: What's the deal, miners?  (Read 2446 times)
alh
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March 10, 2015, 11:05:06 PM
 #21

Because, at least to my knowledge, there are no utility companies that currently accept payment in BTC, you must consider conversion of BTC to USD (or CAD, or GBP, or YEN, or whatever).

Correct! Mind you, lots of small-medium miners (like me!) use miner colocation services like SEG, allinvain's colo, or ASICSPACE.
These colocation services do accept BTC for hosting.

For such a facility, is the hosting cost a fixed amount of Bitcoins per month? Or does it vary each month, presumably with the price of Bitcoin?
sidehack
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March 11, 2015, 01:24:06 AM
 #22

In the bitcoin world, just almost every time the term "ROI" is used it's supposed to be "positive ROI" or "breakeven". I'm one of those guys that gets steadily more and more annoyed when incorrectness is perpetuated. An ROI is just that - a return on an investment. If you plug in your miner and mine for one hour and get one payout from your pool, you've gotten some return on your investment. So yeah, if you look at absolute returns then breakeven happens at ROI=100%, but if you're talking positive/negative relative returns then breakeven happens at ROI=0.


My hosting facility has a fixed power cost, so the BTC billing changes based on the exchange rate. Some others do this, and some charge a flat BTC per month for certain machines, and some charge a flat USD per month. There's a lot of ways to do it.

If you're looking strictly to profit from an exchange and not utilization, you buy and hold. If you're looking to grow the bitcoin economy as an independent economy instead of growing it as a subset of your local currency, you buy and hold.

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
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brent217
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March 11, 2015, 09:18:24 PM
 #23

Buy in bulk and it will reduce costs considerably.

Do not buy 1-3 SP31, order 20-40 then the pricing makes it so you can make profit.

No.  You can no longer make your money back on hardware.

Most of the people running miners today, like me, bought them last year.  Now that I have them, and they are running, I lose more money by shutting them off and selling the hardware than I do by keeping them running.  I will not make my money back unless the price of bitcoin goes back to at LEAST $700.  But a small revenue stream is better than nothing at all.
adaseb
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March 11, 2015, 09:37:41 PM
 #24

Buy in bulk and it will reduce costs considerably.

Do not buy 1-3 SP31, order 20-40 then the pricing makes it so you can make profit.

No.  You can no longer make your money back on hardware.

Most of the people running miners today, like me, bought them last year.  Now that I have them, and they are running, I lose more money by shutting them off and selling the hardware than I do by keeping them running.  I will not make my money back unless the price of bitcoin goes back to at LEAST $700.  But a small revenue stream is better than nothing at all.

That and also many people just do it as a hobby and for the fun of it. Even if they aren't making any money.

bitcoin4eva
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March 11, 2015, 09:55:10 PM
 #25

Buy in bulk and it will reduce costs considerably.

Do not buy 1-3 SP31, order 20-40 then the pricing makes it so you can make profit.

No.  You can no longer make your money back on hardware.

Most of the people running miners today, like me, bought them last year.  Now that I have them, and they are running, I lose more money by shutting them off and selling the hardware than I do by keeping them running.  I will not make my money back unless the price of bitcoin goes back to at LEAST $700.  But a small revenue stream is better than nothing at all.

As said many times before; ROI is possible if electricity cost is low.
cramved
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March 11, 2015, 10:16:43 PM
 #26

From what I learned in economics class as long as you earn more than the electricity is costing you than you should keep mining.
MCHouston
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March 12, 2015, 01:31:23 AM
 #27

Buy in bulk and it will reduce costs considerably.

Do not buy 1-3 SP31, order 20-40 then the pricing makes it so you can make profit.

No.  You can no longer make your money back on hardware.

Most of the people running miners today, like me, bought them last year.  Now that I have them, and they are running, I lose more money by shutting them off and selling the hardware than I do by keeping them running.  I will not make my money back unless the price of bitcoin goes back to at LEAST $700.  But a small revenue stream is better than nothing at all.

You are doing something wrong.  Myself and many people make BTC when buying hardware from manufacturers.

Wrong could cover living in a place with electricity is too high, Not buying the right equipment, Needing to build out your house to support more power, etc etc etc.

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jmumich
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March 12, 2015, 02:21:15 AM
 #28

Hey asswipe,

Price actually does matter a lot. Can't pay for your electricity in BTC fixed prices. You pay in currency.

You're welcome,

Someone who runs a data centre

No retard, you still dont get it do you? Power consumption is fixed so the cost of mining back the BTC you spent to buy miners is easily estimated. If you speculate on the price of BTC to calculate your mining ROI (again nominated in BTC not $), you're dumb as fuck. Speculate the price? do it right and TRADE BTC , dumb fuck


Eh, for the most part you're right, the future exchange rate of bitcoin should not play a role in deciding whether to purchase mining equipment. But it does have a marginal effect in two ways.

The first is the cost of electricity, which is priced in a different currency. Using USD as an example and a $0.10/Kwh rate of electricity, a 1 KW miner costs about BTC0.008 per day to run at an exchange rate of $300. If that miner is current-gen and running at 2Ths (0.5 w/gh - using easy-to-math numbers), it makes about BTC0.02 per day, for an operating profit of BTC0.012 per day. Skip ahead to when difficulty doubles, and that profit is down to a mere BTC0.002 per day. A couple more difficulty increases, and it costs more than it makes, and its bitcoin earning days are over.

Unless the exchange rate changes, and bitcoins increase against the dollar. At an exchange rate of $600, all things equal the cost of electricity per day is now BTC0.004, which means the same miner is earning a profit of BTC0.006 per day. The difficulty would have to rise much more for the miner's operating profit to disappear, which means that it will earn more bitcoins overall.

The second is that exchange rate affects difficulty, though to what extent is unclear. This should be obvious from the first point, as the hypothetical miner discussed there would turn off shortly after difficulty doubled if price were stable, but keep running if the price increased. This counters the first effect, though. However, I'd expect (but this is speculation) that difficulty increases would lag price increases to some extent, as some of the difficulty increase would come from new hardware, and that takes time to manufacture. This is particularly true if the price increases after a long decrease or a period of stagnation (kind of like now).

So based on the above, right now, if you think the price will increase, it may not be a bad idea to grab some inexpensive used hardware. Actually, about a month ago would have been the best time to do that, as there isn't much of that on the market right now.
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March 14, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
 #29

I imagine some miners are hedging in the futures markets. That's what futures were originally created for--to protect against future price fluctuations of commodities.
philipma1957
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March 14, 2015, 09:43:26 PM
 #30




So based on the above, right now, if you think the price will increase, it may not be a bad idea to grab some inexpensive used hardware. Actually, about a month ago would have been the best time to do that, as there isn't much of that on the market right now.

I reached a point like this as of right now I have 4 miners in china at lees place = 4.6th


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934581.0


I have 2  sp20e's and 1 sp20 in house                                                         = 3.9th

and I have 3 avalon 4.1's in house                                                              = 2.8th

total                                                                                                       = 11.3th

My winter power = 13 cents but the heat is worth 3 cents so 10 cents

My summer power = 16 cents add 2 cents for cooling =         18 cents

So my 6.7th in house will be reduced  no later then June 15th when rates go up.

Unless we jump a lot in price.

Most likely I will be selling another sp20e on ebay.  Most buyers here want low prices for a sale of an sp20e


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picolo
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March 14, 2015, 11:59:57 PM
 #31

Actually, your return on investment will be 1, since BTC in = BTC out.

Also, if you really believe in bitcoin you'll buy and then spend. The exchange rate may grow if supply exceeds demand because people are hoarding coins, but the economy as a whole will not because overall utility decreases. A healthy economy will have plenty of purchases of goods and services in bitcoin, and as that process becomes more mainstream and more vendors accept bitcoin in exchange for their various wares, everyone benefits. This doesn't really happen if all we do is hoard.

Mining forces you to save in BTC as you have to maintain your equipement and you are pushed to buy more equipement. You could profit if the difficulty doesn't raise much.
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