Hiding precious metals from the government with bitcoins

[HeavyMetal]

For many years now I have been putting all but my immediate living expenses into physical silver and gold coins/bars. The dollar has demonstrated itself to be one of the poorest investments you can make, having lost value with regularity for decade after decade.

While gold and silver provide a near perfect form of wealth protection I have seen an increasing amount of scrutiny behind the sale and purchase of such metals. I believe that when the fiat money ponzi scheme comes crashing down that the powers that be will already have collected a list of people with precious metals. I believe they will try to deamonize those with gold and make justifications to steal it.

I am exploring bitcoins as a possible way to buy and sell precious metals without leaving a paper trail for the big bankers to follow after the collapse. I have a few questions:

Do people trade bitcoins for precious metals?

Is there a record of the sale, and can this records be hidden?

Is there a danger of me being "charged back" after I have sent the metal? I have had this problem with other forms of payment.

Is it illegal to trade bitcoins for gold?

I would love to hear what people have to say about the subject beyond just the questions I have asked. Hopefully bitcoin is just what I am looking for.

-Heavy Metal

[HeavyMetal]

I can buy PMs with cash, however more and more cities are requiring these stores to copy IDs. Selling PMs requires an even greater likely of having to identify yourself. I can only see the privacy of such sales failing even more in the future.

I have read about mixing services. Am I accurate that if I make a one time wallet to receive money, and then send it through a mixing service that I can the use the bitcoins without fear of them being linked to the original transaction? It seems to me that the mixing service could decide to just keep your money, has that ever been an issue?

[2weiX]

from a PM merchants point of view - yes, people are converting their btc for PMs quite a lot.

[molecular]

I can buy PMs with cash, however more and more cities are requiring these stores to copy IDs. Selling PMs requires an even greater likely of having to identify yourself. I can only see the privacy of such sales failing even more in the future.

I have read about mixing services. Am I accurate that if I make a one time wallet to receive money, and then send it through a mixing service that I can the use the bitcoins without fear of them being linked to the original transaction? It seems to me that the mixing service could decide to just keep your money, has that ever been an issue?

I don't think there is a need to use a mixing service.

If you trust the buyer of your gold to not make your transaction public, noone will know you have received the BTC in exchange for some gold. There's no public record saying: "address 1Whatever3498098234934982 received 1000 BTC for 7 Oz of gold", people just see "address 1Whatever3498098234934982 received 1000 BTC from 1AnotherAdress2039840928349"

If you're buying gold, you'll have the problem that the seller of the gold (say an official site like coinabul.com) will probably have to keep records. You're probably better off buying locally using cash if you want no paper trail and the bitcoin transaction is the least of your problem in this scenario.

Selling metal for bitcoin seems pretty hard to do "over the counter" (like in #bitcoin-otc). You'd have to spend a whole lot of time building trust first.

I recently used bitmit.net to sell one silver eagle (for fun basically). It worked out well, but I don't think I'd sell an ounce of gold online. Too risky.

I would however probably deal metal vs. bitcoin in person (meeting physically) if I had the means to check the coin/bar for authenticity.

@2weix: I'm sure you keep records of your buyers, right?

[2weiX]

I can buy PMs with cash, however more and more cities are requiring these stores to copy IDs. Selling PMs requires an even greater likely of having to identify yourself. I can only see the privacy of such sales failing even more in the future.

I have read about mixing services. Am I accurate that if I make a one time wallet to receive money, and then send it through a mixing service that I can the use the bitcoins without fear of them being linked to the original transaction? It seems to me that the mixing service could decide to just keep your money, has that ever been an issue?

I don't think there is a need to use a mixing service.

If you trust the buyer of your gold to not make your transaction public, noone will know you have received the BTC in exchange for some gold. There's no public record saying: "address 1Whatever3498098234934982 received 1000 BTC for 7 Oz of gold", people just see "address 1Whatever3498098234934982 received 1000 BTC from 1AnotherAdress2039840928349"

If you're buying gold, you'll have the problem that the seller of the gold (say an official site like coinabul.com) will probably have to keep records. You're probably better off buying locally using cash if you want no paper trail and the bitcoin transaction is the least of your problem in this scenario.

Selling metal for bitcoin seems pretty hard to do "over the counter" (like in #bitcoin-otc). You'd have to spend a whole lot of time building trust first.

I recently used bitmit.net to sell one silver eagle (for fun basically). It worked out well, but I don't think I'd sell an ounce of gold online. Too risky.

I would however probably deal metal vs. bitcoin in person (meeting physically) if I had the means to check the coin/bar for authenticity.

@2weix: I'm sure you keep records of your buyers, right?

i do.
i offer to delete the records, though.
also noone keeps you from using a fake name and a PO box / packstation.
theres also always the option to meet in person.

[RodeoX]

I would say buying gold was one of the first things to become part of the bitcoin economy. I haven't in a while, but I have sold some gold for BTC.

[ccliu]

Ive sold maybe 60k worth of PM here since April, and if the government cannot relate an address to a certain person, they cannot determine who has purchased PMs. However message logs, tainted coins and all other correspondence may allow them to detect a person.

[molecular]

also noone keeps you from using a fake name and a PO box / packstation.

you can't use packstation anonymously, can you?

[2weiX]

also noone keeps you from using a fake name and a PO box / packstation.

you can't use packstation anonymously, can you?

depends on your skill set.
in germany, you can still buy pms anonymously with cash up to 15000€, so btc is a hindrance, really.

[molecular]

this thread of course begs the question: why not just keep bitcoin instead of pms

[2weiX]

because PMs are more widely accepted and can be lent against.

[Gladamas]

A service that trades bullion for Bitcoins is http://coinabul.com/.

[FreeMoney]

because PMs are more widely accepted and can be lent against.

Are they? I've bought things direct with my coin, but not my PM. I can sell my coin tonight at market or a tiny fee away, but I think all the PM dealers in the area are closed and when they open they'll want several percent.

I know for sure I could get a fiat loan against my coins not sure if that would really just be against my rep though.

[2weiX]

because PMs are more widely accepted and can be lent against.

Are they? I've bought things direct with my coin, but not my PM. I can sell my coin tonight at market or a tiny fee away, but I think all the PM dealers in the area are closed and when they open they'll want several percent.

I know for sure I could get a fiat loan against my coins not sure if that would really just be against my rep though.

sigh... "widely accepted" is exactly what bitcoin is NOT.

if you can sell your coin on mtgox or this forum, fine.
if you can get some poor shmuck to loan you 5k against your coin, fine.
i might even concur that the spread is a problem when it comes to PMs and that liquidity is problematic also.

but:
even if you sell your btc at market price you will likely not be able to access your cash before sun-up.

also:
the bitcoin community measures what - a couple 10k people?
there arent a half-dozen registered dealers in your town giving you cash for your btc (cavat: spread)
there isnt a single bank that will vault your coins and give you a loan.
gold and silver are accepted (or at least recognized as valuable) by a SLIGHTLY larger group of  roundabout 6 BILLION people. that's your "widely accepted" right there.

[HeavyMetal]

Great responses folks. I appreciate the comments on the danger of the sales being tracked via side channels such as seller records, chat logs etc.

I am glad there is a history of such transactions with BTC, gold and bitcoin do have a lot in common in that they are both limited in production and out of the control of any one group. I am not surprised that the groups overlap considerably.

I will probably test the waters with small silver coins(like dimes, worth about $2) first and then think about gold later.

When I first started collecting I bought up every interesting coin I could find, but now I am trying to focus on widely known bullion like maples and eagles for the sake of liquidity. I am in the process of selling my oddball bars, 90% US silver and Victorian sovereigns and replacing them with plain old well recognized bullion.

[ShireSilver]

Just an FYI, at Shire Silver we do need a good email address and shipping address, but we routinely delete completed orders a few months after we get delivery confirmation.

[HeavyMetal]

Just an FYI, at Shire Silver we do need a good email address and shipping address, but we routinely delete completed orders a few months after we get delivery confirmation.

I have seen your product before. Very interesting idea. I am primarily focusing on very recognizable bullion right now at as low of a premium as I can manage. I will take a look at your products though, they look like good gifts.

EDIT: I just looked at the prices and it does not seem as though investors are your targeted market. I try to get more silver per dollar than that.

[ShireSilver]

I have seen your product before. Very interesting idea. I am primarily focusing on very recognizable bullion right now at as low of a premium as I can manage. I will take a look at your products though, they look like good gifts.

EDIT: I just looked at the prices and it does not seem as though investors are your targeted market. I try to get more silver per dollar than that.

Correct. My product is intended for use in trade and not investing. I do think it complements bitcoins nicely, being useful in situations where bitcoins don't fare as well such as in-person anonymous transactions. And of course, as the market grows it will become more and more recognizable - just like bitcoins.