[RFC] æthereum: a turing-complete coin distributed as per bitcoin's blockchain

[ohad]

Why (Turing) completeness and give up consistency?

[YarkoL]

Why (Turing) completeness and give up consistency?

Are you perhaps having Turing mixed up with Gödel?

[ohad]

Why (Turing) completeness and give up consistency?

Are you perhaps having Turing mixed up with Gödel?

Turing completeness is the same kind of Godel's completeness
That's why you can have inconsistencies like the halting problem

[YarkoL]

Turing completeness is the same kind of Godel's completeness
That's why you can have inconsistencies like the halting problem

Turing completeness is a different concept. Turing complete machine
can simulate any kind of program.

Gödel's completeness is a theoretic concept that is unattainable.
A program that can output true statements about some formal system like arithmetic
is necessarily incomplete (that is, it can't solve every possible calculation) since
if it could give result in every case, it would also give inconsistent results,
and that would render it useless.

[ohad]

Turing completeness is the same kind of Godel's completeness
That's why you can have inconsistencies like the halting problem

Turing completeness is a different concept. Turing complete machine
can simulate any kind of program.

Gödel's completeness is a theoretic concept that is unattainable.
A program that can output true statements about some formal system like arithmetic
is necessarily incomplete (that is, it can't solve every possible calculation) since
if it could give result in every case, it would also give inconsistent results,
and that would render it useless.

It is a different concept but still the completeness subject to Godel's theorem.
On the other hand, under say Martin-Lof type theory, you cannot even express inconsistency. Yet, it is able to express anything a finite Turing machine can do. On Turing complete language you can express contradiction even finitely.

[YarkoL]

It is a different concept but still the completeness subject to Godel's theorem.
On the other hand, under say Martin-Lof type theory, you cannot even express inconsistency. Yet, it is able to express anything a finite Turing machine can do. On Turing complete language you can express contradiction even finitely.

Yes, all programs are subject to Gödel's result,
the unsolvability of the halting problem being a straight corollary of it.

However, Turing completeness is about universality of
computation, and on different logical level than properties
of individual computer programs.

[ohad]

It is a different concept but still the completeness subject to Godel's theorem.
On the other hand, under say Martin-Lof type theory, you cannot even express inconsistency. Yet, it is able to express anything a finite Turing machine can do. On Turing complete language you can express contradiction even finitely.

Yes, all programs are subject to Gödel's result,
the unsolvability of the halting problem being a straight corollary of it.

However, Turing completeness is about universality of
computation, and on different logical level than properties
of individual computer programs.

Turing machine can represent any finite or inifinite computer. So we don't need such expressibility (at least as long as we don't have infinite physical computers).
So why sacrifice consistency (and decidability!) for nothing?

[YarkoL]

Turing machine can represent any finite or inifinite computer. So we don't need such expressibility (at least as long as we don't have infinite physical computers).
So why sacrifice consistency (and decidability!) for nothing?

Well with respect to Ethereum and its possible forks -
I guess Turing complete is not used in strict mathematical sense,
but in the same sense as any looping/branching language is
said to be "Turing-complete". So your question applies also
to the programs your PC is running.

BTW the Ethereum apps do not have unbounded recursion
either, because running them costs ETH and once your out
of it, the program will stop.

[ohad]

Turing machine can represent any finite or inifinite computer. So we don't need such expressibility (at least as long as we don't have infinite physical computers).
So why sacrifice consistency (and decidability!) for nothing?

Well with respect to Ethereum and its possible forks -
I guess Turing complete is not used in strict mathematical sense,
but in the same sense as any looping/branching language is
said to be "Turing-complete". So your question applies also
to the programs your PC is running.

BTW the Ethereum apps do not have unbounded recursion
either, because running them costs ETH and once your out
of it, the program will stop.

Ethereum is Turing complete at the strict math sense - that's was their mission statement from the beginning.
Of course C++/JAVA/Python/Prolog are also Turing complete and I wouldn't make a blockchain with them
But there are other (ready) languages and decentralized applications (under development) with Martin-Lof type theory.
Also worth to mention that once the theory is incosistent (i.e. Turing complete language), *every* theorem can be both proved and disproved! So no way to use proofs over code written with the wrong choice of Turing complete language :\

[dnaleor]

is this dead? Sure looks that way

It was just an idea.
Now we just need to to find someone to develop it. Or gather together to do it.

I am not a dev, but it doesn't seem that hard.
The way ethereum launched was through a genesis block that contained which address owns how much ether.
to launch aethereum, we need to write something to be able to send a "minting transaction" to the network by signing a message containing a valid public key on the aethereum network with a bitcoin keypair. this is "double mint proof" because a public bitcoin address may only sign one key.
every claimed bitcoin address will automatically "mint" the same number of aeth to the signed aethereum address.
that is basically what needs to be written as software, the rest we can fork from ethereum.

I never worked in developing a crypto, only pools but that would be interesting.
First thing to do is to get a community around a slack and discuss development.
I am not a dev though. We would need at least on full time dev and that require funds so the question is :

How to fund æthereum ?
Give your proposals.

maybe pledge some AETH?

I must say that in the last year, my thoughts around this "snapshot" launch changed a bit.
I actually prefer just a new version of ethereum with zero coins at the start and just one AETH as block reward, until infinity...

[superresistant]

is this dead? Sure looks that way

It was just an idea.
Now we just need to to find someone to develop it. Or gather together to do it.

I am not a dev, but it doesn't seem that hard.
The way ethereum launched was through a genesis block that contained which address owns how much ether.
to launch aethereum, we need to write something to be able to send a "minting transaction" to the network by signing a message containing a valid public key on the aethereum network with a bitcoin keypair. this is "double mint proof" because a public bitcoin address may only sign one key.
every claimed bitcoin address will automatically "mint" the same number of aeth to the signed aethereum address.
that is basically what needs to be written as software, the rest we can fork from ethereum.

I never worked in developing a crypto, only pools but that would be interesting.
First thing to do is to get a community around a slack and discuss development.
I am not a dev though. We would need at least on full time dev and that require funds so the question is :
How to fund æthereum ?
Give your proposals.

maybe pledge some AETH?
I must say that in the last year, my thoughts around this "snapshot" launch changed a bit.
I actually prefer just a new version of ethereum with zero coins at the start and just one AETH as block reward, until infinity...

So we just mine it ?
and no premine ?

[smooth]

I must say that in the last year, my thoughts around this "snapshot" launch changed a bit.
I actually prefer just a new version of ethereum with zero coins at the start and just one AETH as block reward, until infinity...

That should absolutely exist as well. In fact if it hasn't been done already it should explicitly be part of a spin-off experiment to launch that one too. The core of the spin-off argument is that "in theory" the spin-off distribution gives a coin compelling advantages in the market. Only with the other reasonable competitors can that experiment be particualrly meaningful.

[Seccour]

is this dead? Sure looks that way

It was just an idea.
Now we just need to to find someone to develop it. Or gather together to do it.

I am not a dev, but it doesn't seem that hard.
The way ethereum launched was through a genesis block that contained which address owns how much ether.
to launch aethereum, we need to write something to be able to send a "minting transaction" to the network by signing a message containing a valid public key on the aethereum network with a bitcoin keypair. this is "double mint proof" because a public bitcoin address may only sign one key.
every claimed bitcoin address will automatically "mint" the same number of aeth to the signed aethereum address.
that is basically what needs to be written as software, the rest we can fork from ethereum.

I never worked in developing a crypto, only pools but that would be interesting.
First thing to do is to get a community around a slack and discuss development.
I am not a dev though. We would need at least on full time dev and that require funds so the question is :
How to fund æthereum ?
Give your proposals.

maybe pledge some AETH?
I must say that in the last year, my thoughts around this "snapshot" launch changed a bit.
I actually prefer just a new version of ethereum with zero coins at the start and just one AETH as block reward, until infinity...

So we just mine it ?
and no premine ?

Why not... But PoS will be better than PoW :/

[therealbigcoin]

Basicly u just need a new genesis block witch can be easy copied and modified (remove premine and stuff)

[Hyena]

Why not... But PoS will be better than PoW :/

I also support PoS. Don't make the same mistake Bitcoin made. Stakeholders and miners should be the same people because then consensus is much easier to achieve.

[smooth]

On the PoS vs. PoW question a spin-off version should do whatever the original does (the Ethereum project's stated plan is something like switch to PoS if it can be made to work, which it seems likely they will claim to be the case).

The purpose of the spin-off experiment is to test the hypothesis that starting with Bitcoin's allocation of wealth (as opposed to a brand new distribution/ledger) is a superior approach and will succeed in defeating the original in the market, not to make a new coin of whatever design you happen to think is best.

Anyway, it seems to be the case that no one is particularly interested in doing the work to actually implement it, so it looks like this idea is going nowhere at the moment.

[Hyena]

On the PoS vs. PoW question a spin-off version should do whatever the original does (the Ethereum project's stated plan is something like switch to PoS if it can be made to work, which it seems likely they will claim to be the case).

The purpose of the spin-off experiment is to test the hypothesis that starting with Bitcoin's allocation of wealth (as opposed to a brand new distribution/ledger) is a superior approach and will succeed in defeating the original in the market, not to make a new coin of whatever design you happen to think is best.

Anyway, it seems to be the case that no one is particularly interested in doing the work to actually implement it, so it looks like this idea is going nowhere at the moment.

ok that's a good point. it should be a complete clone.

[nzminer]

Interesting idea but bitcoin has wealth concentrated at the top don't you this kind of scheme will only benefit the richest?

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Wouldn't it just duplicate one of the main faults of bitcoin? That is, a lot of coins owned by a very small percentage of people?

Yeah what about the exchanges! Getting free æthereum at everyones expense?