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Author Topic: Nothing-at-Stake & Long Range Attack on Proof-of-Stake (Consensus Research)  (Read 15362 times)
kushti (OP)
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August 13, 2015, 07:42:04 PM
 #161

Can anyone link me to some criticism of these claims by qualified people? I'm especially interested in a rebuttal to the claim that long range NaS attacks are not possible in the system that kushti has defined in his and his group's research.

I think long range is not possible because rolling checkpoints. Also when downloading a new chain there is a trust system so you download from a trusted source. Rolling checkpoints are nice but create the risk of dividing the network. A fork larger than the largest allowed reorganization would not be resolved and the network would split.


I remember Bitcoin itself was using checkpoints at one time, not too long ago too. Haven't heard much about that in a while. Do you or anyone else know if they are still in use at all?

Here they are: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/86cfd23f68367af072500b1758a4c446cdd36e74/src/chainparams.cpp#L122 . Last at 295K.

Long range isn't possible not because of rolling checkpoints only(max reorg depth in Nxt is 1440 blocks and you can't generate private branch of such length better than network's not having majority of online stake before splitting).

Ergo Platform core dev. Previously IOHK Research / Nxt core dev / SmartContract.com cofounder.
TPTB_need_war
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November 15, 2015, 07:10:02 PM
Last edit: November 15, 2015, 08:09:49 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #162

so in several blocks you spread out your orders to sell 15% of the currency. Well I am no rocket scientist, but I would think that still you would run into some liquidity issues. Actually it might create more of a panic. Imagine a 100,000 BTC sell order, then another, then another, then another, .... That would probably be more panic creating than a single million BTC sell order.

And by selling the coins, your entire attack is based on the false chain you cleverly made so you get one shot to make it pay off.

so this magical instant selling is to me nonviable, which means the N@S will cost you the amount to acquire the stake, so a lot at stake.

I hope James saw the following comments pointing out that shorting is a means to profit from the destruction of a currency as alternative to needing to sell or double-spend:

So it I understand this correctly an attacker could borrow rather than buy say 10% of the target POS coin. This could be done for example using a pirateat40 type scheme. Sell half of the borrowed POS coins short, and use the remaining 5% of the borrowed coins to launch the attack. This would cause the price of the coin to collapse creating massive profits for our short seller / attacker.

Your assumption ignores the possibility of profits from shorting a currency, large bets, or eventual gains from investments in other currencies when the competition is removed.

Simply dumping a large stake on an illiquid market isn't as profitable as repeatedly manipulating the market and taking profits in another currency before taking one large exit with a leveraged short that is assured when one performs a 51% attack.

TPTB_need_war
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November 16, 2015, 09:08:36 AM
 #163

Tangentially please note even though you didn't make this error, it is a semantic conflation error to equate "nothing at stake" with "nothing to stake" as others have (and James apparently wasn't considering that attackers with large value to stake, can short the coin as a way to make sure they have nothing at stake ... will make sure I bring this to his attention next time we exchange messages):


And if it requires actual stake to do a N@S attack, then there is definitely something at stake!

...If there is no attack without anything at stake, then it seems that something is at stake...


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