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Author Topic: Libertarianism's state in Europe?  (Read 1059 times)
GreenStox (OP)
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May 20, 2015, 09:58:07 PM
 #21

I think Europe is far from being a libertarian paradise. They just have to many socialist ideas and organizations.

Yea but how are the thoughts, and trends proceeding.

Is there any chance that by some miracle it can become libertarian in 10-15 years?

New libertarian country in Europe called Liberland:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1026890.0

This could be a bastion of freedom and liberty in Europe that can send back socialists in their caves  Smiley

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saddampbuh
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May 21, 2015, 03:52:39 PM
 #22

Yes but it's impossible to tax a corporation, because they will just shift the burden to their employers:  fire them or cut their salary, or to the customers: rise prices.

None of that is good for that country, however there are only 2 solutions: you nationalize it = communism , and we know how that works out, if you dont, then thats fascism.

Or you just abolish all taxes & regulation (of which corporations are already exempt, why not make other people too?): in which case, a fired worker can just set up a lemonade stand, without permit, and sell lemonade, and make money the next day.


Of course, this is too extremist, how dare we sell lemonade without permit... we must beg our slave master government first for permit....

some regulations are bullshit but taxes and regulations are different subjects. good luck convincing people on minimum wage who pay no income tax to support libertarian parties who want corporations to pay no tax in the hope that the savings are going to trickle down to them.

what usually happens when companies make savings? cheaper prices and better pay for workers? more like extra money to the shareholders. once worked for a place that abolished most of their admin department and forced all the workers to do their own online. staff and customers didn't benefit one bit as the money just got absorbed back into the company.

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If it were that simple then society would not look like this. They all want welfare and they dont want to do anything about it.

I mean even you admit that you would like to see other people robbed so that you get welfrare...  Cheesy


Wouldnt it be more moral to just earn it yourself and pay the insurer?

And if you want a peaceful and moral society, you cant base it on robbery (taxes).

it is cheaper and easier to pool everyone's contributions under national insurance system than have everyone make their own arrangements with private firms operating under a profit motive. your preferred system is more expensive and covers fewer people.

as a net contributor to our national health service (been fortunate enough to barely need it) i don't object to paying into it because i know if i get sick in a few years and happen to have fallen on hard times i wont be left to die. this can easily happen under your private insurance system as if i couldn't afford to pay for one year and am unlucky enough to get sick, im fucked.
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And that would cause what? Another world war? More violence and coercion. No thanks, i dont want to see the 21 century become a bloodbath again.

I thought humanity has evolved past this tribalish violence based society, but i guess i was wrong.

national socialism allows private enterprise but not exploitation. the threat of nationalising companies who abuse their workers is usually enough to bring them into line. by that i mean you tell a company they have to provide paid holidays, childcare and so on, and if they don't do it, you take them over.

Be radical, have principles, be absolute, be that which the bourgeoisie calls an extremist: give yourself without counting or calculating, don't accept what they call ‘the reality of life' and act in such a way that you won't be accepted by that kind of ‘life', never abandon the principle of struggle.
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May 21, 2015, 06:08:11 PM
 #23


some regulations are bullshit but taxes and regulations are different subjects. good luck convincing people on minimum wage who pay no income tax to support libertarian parties who want corporations to pay no tax in the hope that the savings are going to trickle down to them.

what usually happens when companies make savings? cheaper prices and better pay for workers? more like extra money to the shareholders. once worked for a place that abolished most of their admin department and forced all the workers to do their own online. staff and customers didn't benefit one bit as the money just got absorbed back into the company.


That could be true but you miss 3 critical points about libertarianism, the word comes from liberty = freedom.

1) Nobody forces you to work for an exploiting company that treats you as a slave, a shitty company with a tyrant-like boss is no better than the state
2) Corporations would not exist in a free market, i can't emphasize enough, because you cant comprehend, that a corporation is the creation of the state. There would be only small & medium size companies.
3) What would stop you from starting your own company? If you think your boss is a tyrant, create your own company, and hire your co-workers there to save them from a tyrant, AND you can give them fair wages. WIN-WIN!




it is cheaper and easier to pool everyone's contributions under national insurance system than have everyone make their own arrangements with private firms operating under a profit motive. your preferred system is more expensive and covers fewer people.

as a net contributor to our national health service (been fortunate enough to barely need it) i don't object to paying into it because i know if i get sick in a few years and happen to have fallen on hard times i wont be left to die. this can easily happen under your private insurance system as if i couldn't afford to pay for one year and am unlucky enough to get sick, im fucked.

If you are so nice that you dont object to paying for other people's healtcare, then why not replace the health care system with a charity organization.

Why do you need parasitic bureocrats to steal the healtcare funds (like they usually do), or just waste insane amount of money on agencies to keep an eye on those thieves (who would also become corrupted sooner or later).

Your whole idea is based on: a government run healthcare cares about your life, no it fucking doesnt, in many cases you have to wait 10-12 months for a surgery, and then they do some error , and you die on the table.

It's a very bad idea to risk your health in a corrupted parasitic healthcare system.



national socialism allows private enterprise but not exploitation. the threat of nationalising companies who abuse their workers is usually enough to bring them into line. by that i mean you tell a company they have to provide paid holidays, childcare and so on, and if they don't do it, you take them over.

Oh man , you have such a silly worldview, why are you so attached to this antique stupid worldview where you go work your entire life in a miserable factory and then retire at 65 and life off others.

Your quality of life will be shit, you will work your entire life as a slave, and everything will be controlled by the "big brother".

In a free market, everyone could live their dream life, every day would be a vacation. You would just set up a company, then robots would work there for you. You wont even need workers, and then everyone could stay on his yacht on the beach drinking and partying all their lives.


Freedom can achieve that, but somehow you still prefer the scenario where you work your whole miserable life in a factory, just to get paid vacation, its bullshit!

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