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Carlton Banks
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June 11, 2015, 05:46:46 PM
 #41

Sidechains are best used not as alts, but as other hash-chain secured information services:

  • Decentralised TLD/DNS resolution (Namecoin without the coin)
  • Ownership title (land, vehicles, businesses)
  • Cryptographic contracts
  • Identity/reputation system/s
  • Votes

The key thing is that the whole bitcoin hashing power could potentially choose to mine a successful sidechain, and that's alot of hashing assurance you're getting. Sure, there are going to be side-coin chains too, but many of those ideas may just end up getting merged into the main chain if they're suitable for that. Most will die pretty quickly, I would expect.

Vires in numeris
Carlton Banks
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June 11, 2015, 08:45:41 PM
 #42

Sidechains are best used not as alts, but as other hash-chain secured information services:

  • Decentralised TLD/DNS resolution (Namecoin without the coin)
  • Ownership title (land, vehicles, businesses)
  • Cryptographic contracts
  • Identity/reputation system/s
  • Votes

The key thing is that the whole bitcoin hashing power could potentially choose to mine a successful sidechain, and that's alot of hashing assurance you're getting. Sure, there are going to be side-coin chains too, but many of those ideas may just end up getting merged into the main chain if they're suitable for that. Most will die pretty quickly, I would expect.
This would be a great use of sidechains, I am not anti sidechain at all but I am anti the thought of replacing Bitcoin with sidechains instead of increasing the blocksize.

It's not a straight choice like that IMO. Bigger blocks do one thing. Side chains do another. Both have pros and cons. Both will end up happening, in one form or another.

Vires in numeris
pereira4
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June 11, 2015, 09:27:57 PM
 #43

Because you still keep using bitcoin and its snet effect it is spread around the people in the world

you don't need to accept a bunch of altcoins,just accept bitcoin
Pretty much this. Altcoins are just a hindrance, people are creating them as pump and dump in order to earn quick money almost in 100% cases.
Most of them are copy paste or existing code without any changes beside name of the coin. Instead on focusing our attention on altcoins why don't we focus and upgrade bitcoin?
It would beneficial for us a lot more than creating new altcoin everyday. I think going pro sidechains are also not the way to evolve... Only pure bitcoin is the way. Stop deviations.

The fundamentals of the Bitcoin core doesn't need to change for sidechains to have any sort of configurations. I think sidechains have a place. A country that wants to use Bitcoin technology but under their own rules, could create their own coin through a sidechain, and still operate within the safe Bitcoin ecosystem instead of being some weak alt exposed to attacks.
R2D221
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June 11, 2015, 10:28:25 PM
 #44

Sidechains are best used not as alts, but as other hash-chain secured information services:

  • Decentralised TLD/DNS resolution (Namecoin without the coin)
  • Ownership title (land, vehicles, businesses)
  • Cryptographic contracts
  • Identity/reputation system/s
  • Votes

The key thing is that the whole bitcoin hashing power could potentially choose to mine a successful sidechain, and that's alot of hashing assurance you're getting. Sure, there are going to be side-coin chains too, but many of those ideas may just end up getting merged into the main chain if they're suitable for that. Most will die pretty quickly, I would expect.
This would be a great use of sidechains, I am not anti sidechain at all but I am anti the thought of replacing Bitcoin with sidechains instead of increasing the blocksize.

It's not a straight choice like that IMO. Bigger blocks do one thing. Side chains do another. Both have pros and cons. Both will end up happening, in one form or another.

Yes, but we need things happening for the right reasons. Trying to solve scalability with sidechains is not right, as far as I understand.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
tvbcof
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June 11, 2015, 11:06:48 PM
 #45

...
You're logic is good but the implantation of it just isn't viable, from each corporation having their own chain and it still being open source, to the bitstream team giving seal of approvals for tons of chains without making changes, and for chains to auto convert and with all these things a small fee, the man power to get all this to happen and avoid bugs, scams and high fee's is just insane when compared to increasing the block size and using alt coins if you want other coin styles.

Just FWIW, I have a decent hands-on insight into how corporations tend to get software.  They very rarely write core systems in-house, and usually contract out even fairly basic adaptations.  For tricky cryptographic code it will almost always be the case that it is commissioned from experts.

If Blockstream develops various sidechains for various customers there is some chance that they will demand to have it be open-source.  There is also a fair chance that in many cases the client themselves will wish to have it open-source as a method of instilling confidence.

If a sidechain is closed-source I still might use it for non-trivial needs if it were released by some entity I trust, but this would be a strike against it in my book (though I'm a bit of an odd-ball in these things so it may not matter much to most people.)

I would even use closed source from an entity I didn't trust when only trivial values which I can afford to walk away from (and laugh) are involved.  Indeed, I entrust significant sums to Coinbase at times (out of necessity) and I have no idea what their back-office looks like.  From my experience in the commercial software industry I figure it's probably a mess held together with shoe-strings and bubblegum.  Most closed-source commercial software fits that description.


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TPTB_need_war
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June 13, 2015, 08:20:29 PM
Last edit: June 14, 2015, 01:22:40 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #46

I can't wait for the multitude of sidechain forks that all compete with each other. Sidechains themselves require incentives to operate securely, such as fees and the continued security of the Bitcoin network, so I'd guess we'll start to see a lot of the same issues in sidechain space as we do in altchain space. I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You can also issue your own assets already on Bitcoin (e.g. coinprism, counterparty), so the notion of token issuance for use in general scamming will surely appear on sidechains as well. You can't out-technology human speculation in finance.

There is no speculation incentive because all investments are denominated in BTC. Thus this will force consolidation. Unless there are revenue models and/or dividends for side chains.

Ah... just like all alt coins are merge mined with Bitcoin to support the entire network hash rate? After Elements adds explicit tokenization it'll be easy for anyone to make a sidechain fork and issue "Sidechain Funbux" on their fork, pre-sale them, etc.

But what you've described above is not different than what we already have. I thought you were implying pegged side chains would increase speculation and especially in a way that might dilute Bitcoin more than presently.

Bilateral two-way peg also means that Bitcoin might inadvertently end up supporting a number of pre-existing alt. coins anyway; especially since we can now explicitly tokenize them in a 1:1 peg on the elements sidechain and transfer them there.

I am unclear on how pegged side chains prevent a BTC pegged side chain from creating more BTC fungible monetary units than were transferred into the side chain from another BTC chain?

Assuming debasement of BTC can be cryptographically prevented (but I can't fathom how that can be possible in a decentralized context  Huh ... however I haven't yet entirely digested the Blockstream whitepaper), then I don't see how you justify your claim that Bitcoin might end up supporting altcoins?

(actually I see another way, and it appears to be a win-win paradigm for all involved)

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