Chavez is dead, bitcoin going to $100 tomorrow!!!!

[Puppet]

Concerning Chavez? He is a thief. He stole companies from entrepreneurs in Venuzuela for his own populist agenda and kicked them out of the country.

I guess you think that is somehow worse than foreign companies overthrowing democratic leaders to install puppet regimes to steal Venezuelan (/Iranian/Iraqi/etc)  oil? Chavez gave back to Venezuelans what belonged to them in the first place. Much like Mossadeq before him.

[Puppet]

Yes much worse.

really now. Either you are oblivious to the history of those countries, or you are insane. I assume you are dutch, after your country was liberated in WW2, did you buy back everything from those german entrepreneurs,  or did your governemt "steal" it?

[wachtwoord]

You are right it is likely the latter. And certainly injustice has been done both during and after the war (to Germans and Dutch people alike).

But I have to say I think there are large differences, the fact that Venezuela is not occupied, the fact that property and businesses weren't seized and resold but bought by foreign investors and the fact that those investors have owned the property and business for a far longer time than the duration of WWII being three of them.

[Puppet]

You are right it is likely the latter. And certainly injustice has been done both during and after the war (to Germans and Dutch people alike).

But I have to say I think there are large differences, the fact that Venezuela is not occupied, the fact that property and businesses weren't seized and resold but bought by foreign investors and the fact that those investors have owned the property and business for a far longer time than the duration of WWII being three of them.

Whats the big difference between foreign occupation and a puppet regime or dictatorship imposed by foreign countries if they both serve to steal a nations resources? As for duration,  if WW2 had lasted 20 more years, would german "enterpreneurs" have a had a more valid claim on your countries resources?

[wachtwoord]

Whats the big difference between foreign occupation and a puppet regime or dictatorship imposed by foreign countries if they both serve to steal a nations resources? As for duration,  if WW2 had lasted 20 more years, would german "enterpreneurs" have a had a more valid claim on your countries resources?

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

With respect to the duration. That is very true as it's a gliding scale, which is more right? The longer it takes the longer the crime is disconnected from the present. If an entrepreneur has worked on business for 20 years, taking it away from him is certainly unfair. The same is true (for example) for paintings stolen from Jews during WII being being dispossessed from owners present day and "returned" to families of those it was once stolen from, even if current owners have bought it from others and are many transactions away from the original thieves. I consider that dispossession thievery as well.

But these situations are much more border line to what Chavez was doing. There is no discussion possible that is theft (the same is true for Jeroen Dijsselbloem's recent actions, glad I have always stayed away from bank stocks).

[Puppet]

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

So how could US or brittish companies have bought these resources from Venezualian or Iranian governments? By your logic that wouldnt have been legit to begin with.

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?)  than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

[wachtwoord]

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

So how could US or brittish companies have bought these resources from Venezualian or Iranian governments? By your logic that wouldnt have been legit to begin with.

They haven't. They bought them form other private investors. In the case they were "owned" by a government than the initial sale was a bootstrap method to get things started. Following this governments should not own anything. Did I say I dislike governments?

1. Inefficient use of money
2. Money burning machines
3. 'Redistribute' money in a more equal manner, (O yeah they call it fair, that always causes me nausea. This is also true for the word social in socialism. How is thievery social?)

To me, all governments are thieves, but Venuzula under Chavez is kinda the king of the thieves. There are three countries on my do not go list (supplemented with countries with active conflicts) and I truly love to travel and go everywhere. The do not go list is simply because I am scared to go there . (Venezuela, North Korea and Somalia are on the list).

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?)  than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

True I disagree (and it goes without saying you are entitled to your own opinion). But I thought this was a much more mature conversation than we had previously on these boards

[vdragon]

Yes, countries do not own resources. People do.

To me, all governments are thieves, but Venuzula under Chavez is kinda the king of the thieves. There are three countries on my do not go list (supplemented with countries with active conflicts) and I truly love to travel and go everywhere. The do not go list is simply because I am scared to go there . (Venezuela, North Korea and Somalia are on the list).

Anyway, feel free to disagree, but I see far less evil in a democratically elected leader doing what his own electorate wants him to do (I guess you call that "populism"?)  than in a puppet dictatorship oppressing and massacring their own people and acting only to serve the financial interests of the foreign companies that put it in power.

True I disagree (and it goes without saying you are entitled to your own opinion). But I thought this was a much more mature conversation than we had previously on these boards

 Well I have been both to North Korea and Venezuela, and nothing is more frightening than USA or France. Walking around Chicago, Miami or Paris at night? Yeah right.