Regarding BFL refunds being paid in USD and not bitcoins

[hexed]

Anyone who thinks BFL is cheating people for doing this looks pretty stupid.  The issue is not arguable.  The facts are:

1.  At the time of ordering (at least on my order in September 2012, and everyone after), the prices were in USD.  You had an option TO PAY in bitcoins, but that price was ALWAY in USD.  They sold their product in USD.. that is not arguable.

2.  As you have the option to pay in bitcoins, that price was never a fixed one.  You had to pay the current USD price in bitcoins and it always changed.  3 months ago in January, bitcoins were at the 13$ mark or so.  When you ordered, if you paid in bitcoins you had to pay the market price of USD.  It means you would have had to pay about 100 bitcoins at the time for a Single.  Last month, when bitcoins were at nearing 100$, if you ordered a Single, you would have had to pay about 50.  No one denied this or brought it up for debate since the products started selling last year.

3.  If the price of bitcoins would have gone down to 4$ a bitcoin, would a person who paid "13$ a bitcoin" price be expected to only get 100 bitcoins back at 4$ a bitcoin?  This is what is making so many people look like fools.  Turn the scenario around and you actually see a clear picture.  It is safe to say EVERYONE would be complaining (and may be suing) about receiving 400$ worth of bitcoins back for something they spent 1300$ worth of bitcoins for

So why was no one bitching at them for charging someone 58 bitcoins one month for a Single, and a couple of weeks later charging someone else 27 bitcoins?  It is an easy answer.  The people with even half a brain understand this.  It is the people with such a hatred for BFL that they go to the ends of the earth finding every little thing to bitch about that they lose their minds. Many of those people seem to be people who have never ordered a product in the first place. 

Does it suck that the people who DID order do not have their bitcoins to invest and make more off of?  Of course, but THEY chose to do that.  Lots of them actually used purchased bitcoins,  or paid right from paypal, so they could have had that USD to put in an account, play the stock market, flip a house, or any other type of investments.  It's not just people who paid in bitcoins, but people ho paid in general and could have had that money to make more money.  It always sucks.  If you want to complain, complain about that. 

Anyone who thought they would get refunded in bitcoins is a damn fool.  Let me play out another scenario assuming they WOULD return in bitcoins...

I pay 260 bitcoins last year for a single. I wait till bitcoins make a MAJOR jump in price and then issue a refund.  Hell, I could order 20 devices knowing I would never let them ship, and then issue a refund whenever it is profitable for me.


For all the BFL haters.. it's not like I don't agree, but put your damn thinking caps on though.  Go back to complaining that they haven't shipped, or that they STILL could be scam.  It's old, tired, but still a legitimate problem.  Every time I see one of the typical trolls complaining about not getting paid back in original bitcoins, they look desperate and grasping at straws..
Does it suck that

[k9quaint]

Anyone who thinks BFL is cheating people for doing this looks pretty stupid.  The issue is not arguable.  The facts are:

1.  At the time of ordering (at least on my order in September 2012, and everyone after), the prices were in USD.  You had an option TO PAY in bitcoins, but that price was ALWAY in USD.  They sold their product in USD.. that is not arguable.

2.  As you have the option to pay in bitcoins, that price was never a fixed one.  You had to pay the current USD price in bitcoins and it always changed.  3 months ago in January, bitcoins were at the 13$ mark or so.  When you ordered, if you paid in bitcoins you had to pay the market price of USD.  It means you would have had to pay about 100 bitcoins at the time for a Single.  Last month, when bitcoins were at nearing 100$, if you ordered a Single, you would have had to pay about 50.  No one denied this or brought it up for debate since the products started selling last year.

3.  If the price of bitcoins would have gone down to 4$ a bitcoin, would a person who paid "13$ a bitcoin" price be expected to only get 100 bitcoins back at 4$ a bitcoin?  This is what is making so many people look like fools.  Turn the scenario around and you actually see a clear picture.  It is safe to say EVERYONE would be complaining (and may be suing) about receiving 400$ worth of bitcoins back for something they spent 1300$ worth of bitcoins for

So why was no one bitching at them for charging someone 58 bitcoins one month for a Single, and a couple of weeks later charging someone else 27 bitcoins?  It is an easy answer.  The people with even half a brain understand this.  It is the people with such a hatred for BFL that they go to the ends of the earth finding every little thing to bitch about that they lose their minds. Many of those people seem to be people who have never ordered a product in the first place. 

Does it suck that the people who DID order do not have their bitcoins to invest and make more off of?  Of course, but THEY chose to do that.  Lots of them actually used purchased bitcoins,  or paid right from paypal, so they could have had that USD to put in an account, play the stock market, flip a house, or any other type of investments.  It's not just people who paid in bitcoins, but people ho paid in general and could have had that money to make more money.  It always sucks.  If you want to complain, complain about that. 

Anyone who thought they would get refunded in bitcoins is a damn fool.  Let me play out another scenario assuming they WOULD return in bitcoins...

I pay 260 bitcoins last year for a single. I wait till bitcoins make a MAJOR jump in price and then issue a refund.  Hell, I could order 20 devices knowing I would never let them ship, and then issue a refund whenever it is profitable for me.


For all the BFL haters.. it's not like I don't agree, but put your damn thinking caps on though.  Go back to complaining that they haven't shipped, or that they STILL could be scam.  It's old, tired, but still a legitimate problem.  Every time I see one of the typical trolls complaining about not getting paid back in original bitcoins, they look desperate and grasping at straws..
Does it suck that

It is fine that BFL buys out their investors in dollars.
The fact remains: people who invested $30K in BFL back in Oct would instead have $800K now had they simply kept or bought BTC.
They would have an even bigger pile of money if they had chosen Avalon.

Maybe one day BFL will ship something. They could afford to buy and re-brand Avalons and keep the rest of their pile.

[dropt]

People are thinking of this. "I paid 100 btc at $13 for it originally ($1,300 total) then they went to $130 btc so I can get a refund for $13,000 and put $1,300 back toward a rig and make $11,700."

No, more like: I paid 100btc for it at $13, and if BFL had delivered in Oct like they said they would, I'd have earned that BTC (and more) back LOOOOONNNNGGGG before it ever got passed $25

Full Disclosure:  I wasn't stupid enough to trust BFL after the FPGA saga and stayed hell and far gone away from them.  Pretty glad I did. 

[Red_Evil]

I order in june and after the fpga saga my atention was ... Ha the learn about it ...now all get better ...
But sure i paid in $ and bitinstant get the money for it... The take the risk if the price falls too.

[hexed]

People are thinking of this. "I paid 100 btc at $13 for it originally ($1,300 total) then they went to $130 btc so I can get a refund for $13,000 and put $1,300 back toward a rig and make $11,700."

People are thinking of this. "I paid 100 btc at $13 for it originally ($1,300 total) then they went to $130 btc so I can get a refund for $13,000 and put $1,300 back toward a rig and make $11,700."

No, more like: I paid 100btc for it at $13, and if BFL had delivered in Oct like they said they would, I'd have earned that BTC (and more) back LOOOOONNNNGGGG before it ever got passed $25

Full Disclosure:  I wasn't stupid enough to trust BFL after the FPGA saga and stayed hell and far gone away from them.  Pretty glad I did. 

^Very much like the mixture of these two

[mezzomix]

This doesn't matter for me as they do not deliver any product to me and do not pay me a refund.

[witherworth]

Anyone who thinks BFL is cheating people for doing this looks pretty stupid.  The issue is not arguable.  The facts are:

1.  At the time of ordering (at least on my order in September 2012, and everyone after), the prices were in USD.  You had an option TO PAY in bitcoins, but that price was ALWAY in USD.  They sold their product in USD.. that is not arguable.

2.  As you have the option to pay in bitcoins, that price was never a fixed one.  You had to pay the current USD price in bitcoins and it always changed.  3 months ago in January, bitcoins were at the 13$ mark or so.  When you ordered, if you paid in bitcoins you had to pay the market price of USD.  It means you would have had to pay about 100 bitcoins at the time for a Single.  Last month, when bitcoins were at nearing 100$, if you ordered a Single, you would have had to pay about 50.  No one denied this or brought it up for debate since the products started selling last year.

3.  If the price of bitcoins would have gone down to 4$ a bitcoin, would a person who paid "13$ a bitcoin" price be expected to only get 100 bitcoins back at 4$ a bitcoin?  This is what is making so many people look like fools.  Turn the scenario around and you actually see a clear picture.  It is safe to say EVERYONE would be complaining (and may be suing) about receiving 400$ worth of bitcoins back for something they spent 1300$ worth of bitcoins for

So why was no one bitching at them for charging someone 58 bitcoins one month for a Single, and a couple of weeks later charging someone else 27 bitcoins?  It is an easy answer.  The people with even half a brain understand this.  It is the people with such a hatred for BFL that they go to the ends of the earth finding every little thing to bitch about that they lose their minds. Many of those people seem to be people who have never ordered a product in the first place. 

Does it suck that the people who DID order do not have their bitcoins to invest and make more off of?  Of course, but THEY chose to do that.  Lots of them actually used purchased bitcoins,  or paid right from paypal, so they could have had that USD to put in an account, play the stock market, flip a house, or any other type of investments.  It's not just people who paid in bitcoins, but people ho paid in general and could have had that money to make more money.  It always sucks.  If you want to complain, complain about that. 

Anyone who thought they would get refunded in bitcoins is a damn fool.  Let me play out another scenario assuming they WOULD return in bitcoins...

I pay 260 bitcoins last year for a single. I wait till bitcoins make a MAJOR jump in price and then issue a refund.  Hell, I could order 20 devices knowing I would never let them ship, and then issue a refund whenever it is profitable for me.


For all the BFL haters.. it's not like I don't agree, but put your damn thinking caps on though.  Go back to complaining that they haven't shipped, or that they STILL could be scam.  It's old, tired, but still a legitimate problem.  Every time I see one of the typical trolls complaining about not getting paid back in original bitcoins, they look desperate and grasping at straws..
Does it suck that

+1

I'm tired of seeing people complaining about this...

[Cluster2k]

Bitcoins are a proxy for the USD$.  What do people quote as "the price" of a bitcoin?  In USD$.  What did BFL pay with to create those empty cases and eventual ASIC chips 4 months too late?  I bet the foundry didn't take bitcoins.

When people preordered BFL hardware the bitcoin vs USD$ price was very close per unit.  It's not like people got a 50% discount by paying with one method or another.  Why should people expect to get US$190 back for every US$10 they spent?

[Klestin]

How exactly are they supposed to refund in USD when a (perhaps significant) portion of their purchase income had to be immediately converted into USD for hardware purchase/other expenses?

[michaelmclees]

Two issues.  Number one - The exchange rate wouldn't have been an issue had BFL delivered anything anywhere close to the time frames they quoted when people first ordered.

Number two, the exchange rate has gone almost exclusively up, but suppose it had gone down and people began asking for refunds.  Would BFL give back the original payment in BTC's?  Maybe.  In a world where the exchange rate gets cut in half, I could easily see them saying, "Hey, you paid 75BTC for the single and now you're getting 75 back.  What's the problem?"  Basically, it allows BFL to profit in either USD's or BTC's by simply failing to deliver; its a wonderful hedge.

Number two assumes a certain amount of dishonesty on the part of BFL... but... see number one and make your own conclusions.