thejaytiesto (OP)
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August 06, 2016, 04:35:54 PM |
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What does need to be done before the Mimblewimble solution for privacy can be implemented? I just read the paper and it sounds great. It should solve the issue of the inputs and outputs (having to take special attention to inputs and outputs was always very time consuming and annoying to me but unfortunately you have to if you want some privacy). Apparently it would always send "mixed" coins so you don't have to pay attention to this also you don't need to spend time in JoinMarket stuff just send the coins and you are done (so a user friendly Coinjoin??), and also combines this with Confidential Transactation for masking amount of BTC moved. Finally people could send coins without any worries of companies and attackers tracking peoples money. This sounds too good! I hope we can see this soon?
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tsoPANos
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August 07, 2016, 03:51:10 PM |
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I believe a hard fork would be needed for that. Mimblewimble would better be a discrete blockchain implementation to get 100% of it's scalability potential.
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andytoshi
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August 07, 2016, 03:52:39 PM |
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Because MimbleWimble doesn't support Bitcoin script, it supports far less functionality than Bitcoin and isn't a viable upgrade path for Bitcoin itself. Having said this, it certainly makes sense that MW should be a sidechain, given that huge amounts of Bitcoin's use is for simple "move money from party X to party Y" transactions, which MW does support. I've been thinking that I might work on this if I can find some spare time. Aside from finding time and people, here is a short list of things I think need to be solved before this could be done: - Further review (though I'm increasingly comfortable with the idea). This means somebody needs to do a proper writeup (I might do this in the coming days); I will try to present this at Scaling Bitcoin in Milan to increase its exposure, assuming the real author doesn't appear and that my submission is accepted.
- Payment channel support. I think I have a way, but it involves unprunable blockchain data whenever a CLTV branch is taken, which is annoying. Should be possible to do better.
- Figuring out a bunch of fiddly stuff. Like, because input refs can be completely pruned, they should count for more blockspace than outputs, which can only be pruned when spent, which in turn should count for more blockspace than these excess "kG" values, which can never be pruned.
- Going through the engineering work to spec out the UX for payments; paying requires both sender and receiver to produce data. So should everything happen through a payment protocol? Can we finally get rid of user-visible "addresses"? How should payment channels/Lightning interact with this? Multisig requires interaction among all parties even to receive money, how should this work?
- I want to spend more time trying to shrink the unprunable data. This can be done interactively, so maybe there is some engineering/UX work that'd make that easy? It can also be done with pairing-based crypto, maybe we should evaluate that option?
This is really exciting stuff, but the paper that was deaddropped by the anonymous author unfortunately leaves a lot of work to get to an actual implementation. ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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2_Thumbs_Up
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August 31, 2016, 04:42:07 PM |
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Because MimbleWimble doesn't support Bitcoin script, it supports far less functionality than Bitcoin and isn't a viable upgrade path for Bitcoin itself.
Having said this, it certainly makes sense that MW should be a sidechain, given that huge amounts of Bitcoin's use is for simple "move money from party X to party Y" transactions, which MW does support. From my understanding, mimblewimble does the most basic transactions in a better and more private way than Bitcoin does. IMO, those are the features we want in the main chain. Privacy as an addon will lead to the very use of it being considered suspicious. I'd rather have privacy as the default and more advanced scripts as the addon. That said, I do understand how extremely difficult this would be to roll out in a backwards compatible way. Maybe it would be possible to build sidechains on a sidechain, thus with time making the first sidechain the most used chain, while still offering full backwards compatibility by supporting the legacy chain. Something like this diagram: Bitcoin | Mimblewimble with Lightning Network (Bitcoin 2.0) | | | Sidechain 1 Sidechain 2 Sidechain 3 This would let everyone transfer over to the mimblewimble chain in their own pace. People who prefer the old blockchain could keep using that, but overtime, the mimblewimble chain could become the default payment method on the network, while still providing more advanced features and scripts through its various sidechains.
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kushti
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August 31, 2016, 08:50:57 PM |
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Do we have proofs of security for MW? All I've seen to the moment is just some text with a very informal and unclear proposal. Without proofs it is pretty useless.
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Ergo Platform core dev. Previously IOHK Research / Nxt core dev / SmartContract.com cofounder.
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Gleb Gamow
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May 01, 2017, 06:11:18 PM |
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eXpl0sive
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May 02, 2017, 06:16:28 AM |
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I'm surprised that there is not a single significant thread discussing mimblewimble in detail, or even a healthy debate going on.
Considering how this feature brings many functionalities that Bitcoin desires for a long time, I was hoping for a wider discussions going on the forum. Instead I just found a few one-page thread and a couple of press releases.
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buwaytress
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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
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May 02, 2017, 09:43:09 AM |
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I'm surprised that there is not a single significant thread discussing mimblewimble in detail, or even a healthy debate going on.
Considering how this feature brings many functionalities that Bitcoin desires for a long time, I was hoping for a wider discussions going on the forum. Instead I just found a few one-page thread and a couple of press releases.
I read the link on coindesk - confess it's also the first time I've heard of MW. Apart from the rather odd essay on why women should be more involved in Bitcoin development (what's stopping them, men?), it's one of the more well-cited articles. I venture that MW's never been properly discussed because it's a sidechain and from what little I understand about this idea... there hasn't been a solution for incentivising sidechain miners (how do you call them?). Are they going to want to maintain it for pennies (rancourous boos ensue)? Or do they settle for huge block rewards that mutate MW into an altcoin (hisses ensue from "core")?
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cellard
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May 02, 2017, 01:49:43 PM |
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This is why we need to improve the privacy features of bitcoin immediately: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/68nh7q/knock_knock_police_you_have_bitcoins/This is going to keep happening more and more. If you are unlucky to hold coins tied to former criminal activity you risk that you get raided, it's crazy. People are becoming scared to deal with bitcoin because of this. Fungibility to needs to improved. All bitcoins should be the same, no way to differentiate them. We need to somehow make blockchain analysis impossible. Counting on mimblewimble, , CT coinjoin or whatever to improve this situation.
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687_2
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May 04, 2017, 08:38:13 AM |
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I'm surprised that there is not a single significant thread discussing mimblewimble in detail, or even a healthy debate going on.
Considering how this feature brings many functionalities that Bitcoin desires for a long time, I was hoping for a wider discussions going on the forum. Instead I just found a few one-page thread and a couple of press releases.
I'm also disappointed that the "scaling" issue gathers the majority of developer focus. In any case, I think the XBT freight train has left the station and hard forks will not be possible from this point on. MW will have to be an alt coin (side chain, or whatever it's called), swappable with XBT via LN. I think the key question is: does MW via XBT hardfork make XBT more valuable than XBT + atomic cross chain swaps + LN + etc.? I doubt it. A large, stable and reliable network is always worth more than a small network with more/better features.
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Buy the dip with the security and privacy of your own wallet: use cross chain atomic swaps to trade Bitcoin, USDT, and Ether. Trades are secured and settled on-chain. https://sibex.io
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TeamMollyMassive
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May 15, 2017, 01:21:46 AM |
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Mimblewimble time. It looks like a bright future for innovative tech
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Amitabh S
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May 19, 2017, 08:50:40 PM |
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Has someone converted the original paper to something more easier to read (with proper latex symbols etc)? Please post a link if there is such a version.
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YarkoL
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May 25, 2017, 12:47:00 PM |
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I read the link on coindesk - confess it's also the first time I've heard of MW. Apart from the rather odd essay on why women should be more involved in Bitcoin development (what's stopping them, men?), it's one of the more well-cited articles.
Groceries are bought, shopping is done mostly by women world-wide. As long as bitcoin is not suitable for making small payments, why should women bother? As for technical-minded ladies, we have quite a lot of them actually, but they are not very vocal on this here or on reddits. A slight perusal of the general writing style here and the culture that has grown around crypto will soon elucidate why this is the case.
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“God does not play dice"
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andytoshi
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May 26, 2017, 03:13:24 PM |
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MimbleWimble is just a technology; the blockchain which is supporting its own currency is called "grin" (similar to CryptoNote vs Bytecoin except without the scam surrounding it). I really wish these wouldn't be conflated in the public eye, but the reporting seems to do it quite a bit. Regarding moving away from Bitcoin, I proposed a scheme to the grin developers by which they can softfork in a Bitcoin peg onto their chain (using Confidential Assets it can cheerfully support its own currency alongside pegged bitcoins alongside whatever, they don't affect each others' security but they do share a privacy set) which they seemed quite enthusiastic about. I'm surprised that there is not a single significant thread discussing mimblewimble in detail, or even a healthy debate going on.
Considering how this feature brings many functionalities that Bitcoin desires for a long time, I was hoping for a wider discussions going on the forum. Instead I just found a few one-page thread and a couple of press releases.
There has been a lot of research and development happening in the Mimblewimble space lately, but it's extremely fast moving and there hasn't been a lot of writing about it. You can follow the mimblewimble-dev mailing list for some of it, but unfortunately the non-boring stuff been largely happening in meatspace. A short list of developments since this thread was started and I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting.
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eXpl0sive
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May 26, 2017, 07:21:32 PM |
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@andytoshi: thanks for the detailed information, mate! Really appreciate that. Looks like there's a lot of stuff going on, just not being discussed on this forum.
I am really looking forward to this project's success.
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