How to recover Bitcoins using pass phase

[Dogmatix]

I'm trying to learn and understand how to use bitcoin wallets and more importantly, how to do it safe and how to recover if/when shit hits the fan.

So I downloaded a wallet, breadwallet actually. I did my homework and wrote down the pass phrase and transferred 0.001btc for testing purpose.

Then I started testing different scenarios and assumed that I for some reason lost my phone and downloaded a different wallet and tried enter my passphrase. As to my understanding, I thought the passphrase was universal and added to the blockchain, so that any wallet would be able to restore my bitcoins, as long as I had the phrase, but apparently not.

When trying to import a wallet in e.g copy, it says "could not access wallet at server".

So does this mean that my passphrase is only valid with breadwallet, since that's where I created it, or how does this work? Is there no way I can create a passphrase that is registered in the blockchain so I'm independent of which wallet I use?

[HabBear]

A passphrase is for you only, it's not added to the blockchain. After you've been given your passphrase the only person who has a copy is you.

And that passphrase only applies to your Breadwallet. If you were to get a Trezor you would get a new and different passphrase.

[Dogmatix]

A passphrase is for you only, it's not added to the blockchain. After you've been given your passphrase the only person who has a copy is you.

Yes of course. What I mean is that I in some way thought that a hash of the passphrase was added to the blockchain and that the key to this hash was the actual bitcoin value I hold, just because it's me and only me who holds the key (passphrase) to this hash.

[Dogmatix]

And that passphrase only applies to your Breadwallet. If you were to get a Trezor you would get a new and different passphrase.

This doesn't make sense to me. How can I feel secure with using a wallet then? I mean, there's no guarantee that  breadwallet is available in the future when I need to recover. Isn't there a universal way to store bitcoins that is platform independent?

[HabBear]

And that passphrase only applies to your Breadwallet. If you were to get a Trezor you would get a new and different passphrase.

This doesn't make sense to me. How can I feel secure with using a wallet then? I mean, there's no guarantee that  breadwallet is available in the future when I need to recover. Isn't there a universal way to store bitcoins that is platform independent?

That's true. If their website were to just disappear all of their customers would be out of luck.

Using an exchange for the bulk/majority of your Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) savings is NEVER advised. You should use the exchange wallet for transactions and get a hardward wallet (like Trezor) to hold most of your Bitcoin. These hardware wallets have much lower risks.

Technically no wallet is platform independent because they all require the blockchain for transactions. Hardware wallets, paper wallets, physical cryptocoins, and a wallet that gives you the private keys should be platform independent. If you have the private keys you can transact, regardless of platform. Others correct me if I'm wrong!

[Dogmatix]

And that passphrase only applies to your Breadwallet. If you were to get a Trezor you would get a new and different passphrase.

This doesn't make sense to me. How can I feel secure with using a wallet then? I mean, there's no guarantee that  breadwallet is available in the future when I need to recover. Isn't there a universal way to store bitcoins that is platform independent?

That's true. If their website were to just disappear all of their customers would be out of luck.

Using an exchange for the bulk/majority of your Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency) savings is NEVER advised. You should use the exchange wallet for transactions and get a hardward wallet (like Trezor) to hold most of your Bitcoin. These hardware wallets have much lower risks.

Technically no wallet is platform independent because they all require the blockchain for transactions. Hardware wallets, paper wallets, physical cryptocoins, and a wallet that gives you the private keys should be platform independent. If you have the private keys you can transact, regardless of platform. Others correct me if I'm wrong!

Ok, starting to understand, I was under the impression that the pass phrase was in fact my private key to a cold storage. Thats how I would've designed it if I were to make a wallet . I mean, what's the purpose of having an alternative reality for each wallet, instead of just creating a cold storage that is operated through the interface. Thats probably whats happening under the hood, but it makes no sense to me to add a layer that makes the passphrase or key to the wallet plattformdependent, instead of letting the wallet operate by the private key.

So my quest for a secure way to store bitcoins continues. I did some reading up on cold storages and found this site that can generate a bitcoin adress for me and a private key.

https://www.bitaddress.org

So lets say I create an address here and securely store my private key and transfer a fortune there . How can I access my bitcoins then? Where do I put in my private key to access the bitcoins if I want to transfer them to an exchange or friend? Is there any way to monitor my bitcoins, like a wallet where I can put in my private key to look over them now and then to make sure that they're still there?

I actually ordered a nano ledger last week, but from the reading I've done now, I'm not sure that was what I was looking for. The ledger seems to suffer from the same problem as any of the other wallets and doesn't let me access the private key.

[HabBear]

So lets say I create an address here and securely store my private key and transfer a fortune there . How can I access my bitcoins then?

Where do I put in my private key to access the bitcoins if I want to transfer them to an exchange or friend?

Is there any way to monitor my bitcoins, like a wallet where I can put in my private key to look over them now and then to make sure that they're still there?

I actually ordered a nano ledger last week, but from the reading I've done now, I'm not sure that was what I was looking for. The ledger seems to suffer from the same problem as any of the other wallets and doesn't let me access the private key.

If you ever enter your private key on a site your address could become compromised because your private key has been made (potentially) public. Using a Ledger or Trezor is the safest place for long term storage. They allow you to send bitcoin without exposing the private key AND don't really require a platform to subscribe to. The pass phrase is like a replacement for your private key with that particular wallet.

Trezor and Ledger have agreements with some other mobile wallets so you can view your balance but not spend from the mobile wallet (there are variations).

I get your point about "why not just have the pass phrase" but logistically speaking then Satoshi would have had to select a base language for all pass phrases (now the private key in your example) to be issued in. Using a private key is much more secure because you have greater combinations in an alphanumeric code than you do with a series of 20 words. The trick with the pass phrase is that any wallet firm that uses one sets a clock after the first wrong entry of the passphrase and with each new entry the time on that clock (until you can try again). So someone randomly trying to guess your pass phrase is going to get into months or years of wait time for the next entry very quickly.

I hope this is helping. Happy to answer more questions.

[Dogmatix]

So lets say I create an address here and securely store my private key and transfer a fortune there . How can I access my bitcoins then?

Where do I put in my private key to access the bitcoins if I want to transfer them to an exchange or friend?

Is there any way to monitor my bitcoins, like a wallet where I can put in my private key to look over them now and then to make sure that they're still there?

I actually ordered a nano ledger last week, but from the reading I've done now, I'm not sure that was what I was looking for. The ledger seems to suffer from the same problem as any of the other wallets and doesn't let me access the private key.

If you ever enter your private key on a site your address could become compromised because your private key has been made (potentially) public. Using a Ledger or Trezor is the safest place for long term storage. They allow you to send bitcoin without exposing the private key AND don't really require a platform to subscribe to. The pass phrase is like a replacement for your private key with that particular wallet.

Trezor and Ledger have agreements with some other mobile wallets so you can view your balance but not spend from the mobile wallet (there are variations).

I get your point about "why not just have the pass phrase" but logistically speaking then Satoshi would have had to select a base language for all pass phrases (now the private key in your example) to be issued in. Using a private key is much more secure because you have greater combinations in an alphanumeric code than you do with a series of 20 words. The trick with the pass phrase is that any wallet firm that uses one sets a clock after the first wrong entry of the passphrase and with each new entry the time on that clock (until you can try again). So someone randomly trying to guess your pass phrase is going to get into months or years of wait time for the next entry very quickly.

I hope this is helping. Happy to answer more questions.

But doesnt this put me in the same dilema as with the breadwallet. If the ledger company for some reason would shut down, then my pass phrase would be useless, since the pass phrase only can be interpreted by the ledger system and servers?

To me it seems like the only correct way to store bitcoins, is by paper wallet. Then I get access to my private key, which can be universally understood by the bitcoin network and any currently or future existing wallets. If I would be able to extract my private key from my ledger it would make sense to use it, because then I have a universal backup regardless of what happens to the ledger network and servers. But that doesnt seem to be the case.

[HabBear]

But doesnt this put me in the same dilema as with the breadwallet. If the ledger company for some reason would shut down, then my pass phrase would be useless, since the pass phrase only can be interpreted by the ledger system and servers?

Your concern is VERY valid. I'll start by saying that anything is possible (good or bad). But these companies, particularly Ledger and Trezor don't get the universally high reputation they have without having thought through all ways for their wallet holders to maintain control over their coins.

I looked up the answer to your question on the SatoshiLabs (Trezor) blog site, because I knew I could find it faster. See what they say below:

What happens if the SatoshiLabs shuts down?
There are no such plans because we love bitcoin, but even if we had to close down, there’s nothing to worry about. You can use your TREZOR together with other BIP32, BIP39 and BIP44 compatible wallets. Since our code is open source, developers from around the world can maintain it and add new functionalities.

You should look up if Ledger has a similar response to this question.

To me it seems like the only correct way to store bitcoins, is by paper wallet. Then I get access to my private key, which can be universally understood by the bitcoin network and any currently or future existing wallets. If I would be able to extract my private key from my ledger it would make sense to use it, because then I have a universal backup regardless of what happens to the ledger network and servers. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Paper wallet probably is the purest way to store bitcoin, provided you create the private key while offline no one but you will know what it is. The challenge with paper wallets is that if it gets destroyed (as paper can) or gets lost you're sunk. With a Ledger or Trezor you can buy a new device and immediately regain access to your coins using the passphrase. It would be wise to have an extra Ledger (since you've already purchased one) just lying around in your home, ready to be activated if you needed it.

Everyone has a different approach to their bitcoin storage, you're asking good questions and you should do more reading.

Dare I ask how much we're talking about? More than 10BTC? More than 100BTC? More than 1000BTC?

[Dogmatix]

But doesnt this put me in the same dilema as with the breadwallet. If the ledger company for some reason would shut down, then my pass phrase would be useless, since the pass phrase only can be interpreted by the ledger system and servers?

Your concern is VERY valid. I'll start by saying that anything is possible (good or bad). But these companies, particularly Ledger and Trezor don't get the universally high reputation they have without having thought through all ways for their wallet holders to maintain control over their coins.

I looked up the answer to your question on the SatoshiLabs (Trezor) blog site, because I knew I could find it faster. See what they say below:

What happens if the SatoshiLabs shuts down?
There are no such plans because we love bitcoin, but even if we had to close down, there’s nothing to worry about. You can use your TREZOR together with other BIP32, BIP39 and BIP44 compatible wallets. Since our code is open source, developers from around the world can maintain it and add new functionalities.

You should look up if Ledger has a similar response to this question.

To me it seems like the only correct way to store bitcoins, is by paper wallet. Then I get access to my private key, which can be universally understood by the bitcoin network and any currently or future existing wallets. If I would be able to extract my private key from my ledger it would make sense to use it, because then I have a universal backup regardless of what happens to the ledger network and servers. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Paper wallet probably is the purest way to store bitcoin, provided you create the private key while offline no one but you will know what it is. The challenge with paper wallets is that if it gets destroyed (as paper can) or gets lost you're sunk. With a Ledger or Trezor you can buy a new device and immediately regain access to your coins using the passphrase. It would be wise to have an extra Ledger (since you've already purchased one) just lying around in your home, ready to be activated if you needed it.

Everyone has a different approach to their bitcoin storage, you're asking good questions and you should do more reading.

Dare I ask how much we're talking about? More than 10BTC? More than 100BTC? More than 1000BTC?

Basically I'm looking for a way to store my btc securely offline, but I also want to be able to in some way look at my bch from time to time to feel calm that they're still there and that nothing has happened. Is this possible, or would I have to insert my private key online to do that? Can I verify my funds my using my public key maybe? I understand what you say about paper wallet and that I have the concern of losing it. But to be fair,  I wouldn't trust my memory with a pass phrase anyway and would have to rely on having it written down.

I'm also a bit stressed about all the forks happening, I want to controll my bch myself so I can be sure to get coins after each fork, which doesn't seem to be the case on exchanges e.g. This also seems hard to achieve when having the coins offline, as I would have to shuffle them online to a wallet to get the coins. I don't really like the idea of having to transfer my bitcoins around, as one has to be very careful in every step.

Ideally I want to put my bch away in a safe somewhere and beeing able to ensure they're still there without touching them, and having my alt coins magically popup somewhere. But we can't have it all. I can only imagine the stress people with a lot of bch have with these forks.

Maybe the best way is to divide the bch among many paper wallets, so only small amounts are handled at each time.

[Dogmatix]

What happens if the SatoshiLabs shuts down?
There are no such plans because we love bitcoin, but even if we had to close down, there’s nothing to worry about. You can use your TREZOR together with other BIP32, BIP39 and BIP44 compatible wallets. Since our code is open source, developers from around the world can maintain it and add new functionalities.

You should look up if Ledger has a similar response to this question.

This was actually very interesting. So it seems like there are common protocols for the connection between pass phrases and private keys, so we're actually not out of luck if one wallet goes offline, as long as it uses a common protocol for the pass phrases -> private key convertion.  So my question in my original post is still a mystery to me. I looked up that breadwallet and it uses BIP39, which seems to be common, so I should be able to recover the wallet in any other wallet application compatible with BIP39, but still I'm out of luck after testing it with several other wallets.

[HabBear]

YES!

The combination of public key and pass phrase should be incredibly unique enough to be verifiable if the current platform you use goes down - for business or other purposes.

I like SatoshiLabs' Trezor because they have a very consistent and public process for communicating their intentions and service support. You may not be able to get someone on the phone quickly, but their FAQ Blog is significantly more extensive and informative than most others.

I'm glad you're feeling better about all of this.

Your final (and original question) is a good one. It's possible that Breadwallet's platform isn't compatible with BIP39, but I agree that it should be. Have you tried contacting Breadwallet with this question? I know we've only discussed this over the weekend.

Maybe others here can chime in?