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Author Topic: Why OFF-CHAIN transactions are not the solution  (Read 1459 times)
Tacticat (OP)
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November 30, 2013, 11:15:32 AM
Last edit: November 30, 2013, 11:28:37 AM by Tacticat
 #1

The block size seems to be slowly reaching its limit and people are proposing several solutions to this problem. One proposed solution is switching to off-chain transactions while keeping the block size limit the same in order to keep "Bitcoin free". But however "free", such a move will end up being extremely bad for the currency. Here's why:

Bitcoin is revolutionary because it's a consensus based decentralized network. This is one of the core ideas behind bitcoin and I do seriously think that we would end up harming the currency's reputation if we now started asking users to sign up for CoinBase, Bitpay or whatever centralized and privately owned service.

"Oh yes, Bitcoin is awesome... but you must now register here. These people will store (own) your bitcoins now and if you have any problem just use their customer support."

But wait, isn't that exactly the same as Paypal? Where are the benefits then? What is the difference?


"Uh, well... it's Bitcoin and it's cool. Right? Right?  Cool"

Furthermore, Off-chain transaction also means that these private companies will be able to change ther rules. How long would it take until someone makes transactions reversible by default? And how long until we see forums complaining about bad business practices with titles such as "X company doesn't answer my emails. Upvote for support!".

Finally, what would happen if one of those services gets hacked and all their funds stolen. What would this say about the security of Bitcoin?

Paypal uses Fiat and they can't be robbed because they are insured and whatever bank would reverse the thief's transaction. But this is not possible with Bitcoin, which would eventually mean that using a Bitcoin Payment processor is considerably more dangerous than using Fiat payment processors. And since Offchain transactions would be the norm, we would be forced to use them.

I seriously don't see this proposed solution doing any good.

What alternatives do we have?

The Bitcoin community is made up of some of the most brilliant minds in the world. Are you really telling me that we can't find a solution to compress the information on the ledger enough so that a healhy amount of full-nodes always exists?

Bitcoin is based on consensus, which also means that we can change the code on consensus and even change the way the Blockchain is stored, making it smaller and allowing for increased scalability. We could even tell the software to read / write the blockchain in one way before block X and in a different compressed way after block X.

1. Pruning the Blockchain

I don't know exactly how pruning works and if it will solve this problem, because I've also read that some full-full nodes would be necessary with pruning. But still, that seems to be a better option than off-chain transactions.

2. Creating a Masterblock

Bitcoin works on consensus. If on consensus we can decide the size of the blockchain and the transaction fee, on consensus we could certainly also decide that Block X with hash X is to become the new Origin block.

We take all unspent inputs previous to a certain date and collect them in a Masterblock which is to become the new origin. Aftewards let the blockchain grow considerably longer so that the masterblock is stuck in between the regular chain and impossible to change even with an incredibly large amount of hashing power. Then, after a certain update, we decide on consensus that everything prior to the Masterblock does not need to be downloaded.

I don't see a problem with this, because we would have used proper security methods, time and consensus to make sure that the Masterblock-chain would be as secure and representative as the current chain.

And even if this were not to be the best solution, I would still prefere it to semi-mandatory off-chain transactions.

What do you think?

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MoonShadow
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December 07, 2013, 01:31:53 AM
 #2


But wait, isn't that exactly the same as Paypal? Where are the benefits then? What is the difference?



One difference is that there would be dozens, if not hundreds, of bitcoin services to choose from.  Consumer choice is never a bad thing.  Another difference is that we all have the choice to run our own node if it means that much to us.

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Furthermore, Off-chain transaction also means that these private companies will be able to change ther rules.

No it would not.

Quote
Finally, what would happen if one of those services gets hacked and all their funds stolen. What would this say about the security of Bitcoin?


That already happened, to Mybitcoin.com.  Fortunes were lost, but it was an inditment against Mybitcoin.com's security model, not Bitcoin's.
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Paypal uses Fiat and they can't be robbed because they are insured and whatever bank would reverse the thief's transaction. But this is not possible with Bitcoin, which would eventually mean that using a Bitcoin Payment processor is considerably more dangerous than using Fiat payment processors. And since Offchain transactions would be the norm, we would be forced to use them.

No we would not.  The only reason that such wallet services would even be viable businesses is if it's generally cheaper to use such services than pay a normal network transaction fee.  But there would be any number of ways to avoid such fees, not just the paypal-like bitcoin walet service model.  Another that I think would be viable is a Ripple-like overlay network.  Another woudl be something similar to what Electrum does with their Stratum overlay network.

Quote
I seriously don't see this proposed solution doing any good.

What alternatives do we have?

The Bitcoin community is made up of some of the most brilliant minds in the world. Are you really telling me that we can't find a solution to compress the information on the ledger enough so that a healhy amount of full-nodes always exists?


Of course we can, more than one in fact.  But the economic drivers for users to favor services has less to do with the size of the blockchain, and more to do with expected future transaction costs.  Currently, transaction fees are being heavily subsidized by block rewards, but future network congestion is bound to force that fee up.  The developers are still working on methods of streamlining the network, but at some transaction volume in the future, fees are going to have to total $25K per block to maintain the current level of security.  Ideally, we can improve the netowrk's throughput so that the costs are spread across many feee paying transactions, but Visa's average throughput is about 2K TPS, or about 1.2 Million transactions per block, which put the cost per transaction at less than 3 cents each.  But if we can't get there, something is going to have to give, because users aren't going to suddenly start paying GAvin's Cost (about 3.3 millibiitcoins per kilobyte) if they can avoid it, and they can avoid it if some portion of their transactions can be done off-network.
Quote
Bitcoin is based on consensus, which also means that we can change the code on consensus and even change the way the Blockchain is stored, making it smaller and allowing for increased scalability. We could even tell the software to read / write the blockchain in one way before block X and in a different compressed way after block X.


Compression of the blockchain is impossible, but there is another solution....
Quote
1. Pruning the Blockchain

I don't know exactly how pruning works and if it will solve this problem, because I've also read that some full-full nodes would be necessary with pruning. But still, that seems to be a better option than off-chain transactions.


Completely full nodes without pruning of any kind will not be neccessary per se, but I'd expect that some institutions would want to do it.  As for bootstrapping a new client after pruning is the default state, the client could simply be programmed to download the block headers (which are persistant data tha must exist anyway) up until some known block number, and so long as that known block number has a hash that matches the hash that the node has been programmed to expect, and that the whole set of block headers have  a single hash that the node has been programmed to expect, that client could treat that special block number as it's own genesis block from that point.  After all, users normally create a new wallet'dat file at that point, and it would be strange to need the blocks that existed prior to that point unless you were mining.

Quote

2. Creating a Masterblock

Bitcoin works on consensus. If on consensus we can decide the size of the blockchain and the transaction fee, on consensus we could certainly also decide that Block X with hash X is to become the new Origin block.


This is similar to what I described above, but no network consensus about which block is required.  That special block can be updated with each realease of a client, and be differant for each indepenantly maintained client.

Quote

We take all unspent inputs previous to a certain date and collect them in a Masterblock which is to become the new origin. Aftewards let the blockchain grow considerably longer so that the masterblock is stuck in between the regular chain and impossible to change even with an incredibly large amount of hashing power. Then, after a certain update, we decide on consensus that everything prior to the Masterblock does not need to be downloaded.


Unnecessary.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
niniyo
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December 07, 2013, 03:27:06 AM
 #3

Agreed that off-blockchain services can provide enhanced features to consumers and merchants, but if these services become widespread it should be because users choose them, not because users are forced off the blockchain by high fees.

Cheap blockchain transactions and abundant off-blockchain services = big win for bitcoin.
Unaffordable blockchain transactions and forced off-blockchain usage = bitcoin loses most of its intrinsic value.
btcton
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December 07, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
 #4

We wouldn't be forced to use off-chain transactions if we can pay the transaction fee. The only problem I see is that depending on the rate of adoption of bitcoin, off-chain providers could be paying huge fees to send transactions in bulk, leaving aside those who are not part of one of those providers. That's for the distant future, though, but it is still good to take it into account.

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December 07, 2013, 03:47:29 AM
 #5

As long as the entire, complete, full, everything back to the genesis block ... the whole blockchain is under a certain size, some people or some entities will keep the whole thing.

That "maximum" size is increasing all the time.

Personally, I don't think about the current blockchain size until I run out of hard drive space on my laptop, and that's going to take awhile.

TakashiMakat
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December 10, 2013, 10:42:12 PM
 #6

Other than transaction costs, there are another factors that might drive users to centralized wallet services and those are security and convenience.

Keeping coins safe is really difficult for the average person. It might cost people a lot in the long run.

Bitcoin addresses, transaction fees, confirmations are all complicated concepts for most users. A web wallet with a nice interface that allows transferring coins to email addresses and merchants with username/password might be very attractive.
MoonShadow
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December 10, 2013, 11:13:15 PM
 #7

The point is that users have a choice; to either manage the security and costs themselves, or contract out to another party.  Currently, consumers using fiat currencies don't have this choice.  Not really, anyway; as all real banks are part of the particular central banking system that they must adhere to.  If it's your central bank that is untrustworthy, it's a real competition among banks that is desired.  Bitcoin can offer that, but it does not garrantee it.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 11, 2013, 06:56:08 AM
 #8

Without competition against off-chain by on-chain means eventually it devolves to the strongest cartels controlling the off-chain system.

And the problem with transaction fees is precisely why Bitcoin's design is flawed.

Luckily this all (and more) can be fixed in an altcoin.

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MoonShadow
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December 11, 2013, 08:09:59 AM
 #9

Without competition against off-chain by on-chain means eventually it devolves to the strongest cartels controlling the off-chain system.

And the problem with transaction fees is precisely why Bitcoin's design is flawed.

Luckily this all (and more) can be fixed in an altcoin.

It can be "fixed" in Bitcoin, if it actually proves to be a problem.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 12, 2013, 01:47:37 PM
 #10

Without competition against off-chain by on-chain means eventually it devolves to the strongest cartels controlling the off-chain system.

And the problem with transaction fees is precisely why Bitcoin's design is flawed.

Luckily this all (and more) can be fixed in an altcoin.

It can be "fixed" in Bitcoin, if it actually proves to be a problem.

That assumes that the vested interests who control most of the coins and most of the mining agree with the fix. They may have a cartel reason to prefer the centralization in the current design.

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MoonShadow
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December 12, 2013, 03:55:24 PM
 #11

Without competition against off-chain by on-chain means eventually it devolves to the strongest cartels controlling the off-chain system.

And the problem with transaction fees is precisely why Bitcoin's design is flawed.

Luckily this all (and more) can be fixed in an altcoin.

It can be "fixed" in Bitcoin, if it actually proves to be a problem.

That assumes that the vested interests who control most of the coins and most of the mining agree with the fix. They may have a cartel reason to prefer the centralization in the current design.

Perhaps, but then they will also undermine the market leader status of Bitcoin itself; likely destroying their own savings and income in the process.  That's not likely IMHO.  If it can be fixed inside Bitcoin, it will be fixed.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 12, 2013, 04:02:40 PM
 #12

Without competition against off-chain by on-chain means eventually it devolves to the strongest cartels controlling the off-chain system.

And the problem with transaction fees is precisely why Bitcoin's design is flawed.

Luckily this all (and more) can be fixed in an altcoin.

It can be "fixed" in Bitcoin, if it actually proves to be a problem.

That assumes that the vested interests who control most of the coins and most of the mining agree with the fix. They may have a cartel reason to prefer the centralization in the current design.

Perhaps, but then they will also undermine the market leader status of Bitcoin itself; likely destroying their own savings and income in the process.  That's not likely IMHO.  If it can be fixed inside Bitcoin, it will be fixed.

Agree with MoonShadow.   Keep in mind that everyone focuses on the economics in the end.   "greed is good."   If an alternative arises that is "better" many parties will look towards alternatives to shift and maintain their existing assets vs. purchase new or build new.   

 

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