How to gain Trust?

[rpietila]

Hello community,

I am sure this matter has been discussed before, so hopefully you can forward me to some good threads.

The matter is trust. I have for a few months been moderately active in the forum, and Bitcoin itself I know ever since 2010.

I have been doing full-time business for 12 years. My investing experience is 16 years. I have established about 5 companies, been advisor to more, organized tens(!) of financing rounds, and still own, chair and/or run multiple businesses in two countries. Their combined sales are in the range of millions. I am married for 10 years, I have a daughter. One of the companies I lead, has more than 60 shareholders. I have enriched them by selling them silver when it was cheap. They hold several tons(!) of silver in the company's dedicated vault. They have thousands of bitcoins, too. I also have some bitcoins.

I am not old, I'm 32. But I am adult. And I have a hard time with some of the "rules" in this community. Everybody is paranoid as hell. I understand that bitcoinworld is full of scams, but I have a hard time accepting that. Anyone who has been with bitcoin as long as I is sitting on good gains from the value appreciation alone. In the world outside of bitcoin, scamming is not really the modus operandi. I have encountered scammers in my career, yes. One sold me silver-plated trinkets worth € 25,000 with forged documents and an elaborate cover story why they were solid silver. I was relaxed by the appearance of this 60-year old gentleman with his 25-yo son and their family company. Another time I was defrauded of 300 grams of gold. I paid first to a long-time customer. He never sent the product and vanished. Luckily I paid only 50% upfront. Then another one bought 20,000 oz of silver and did not pay. I had quite a diplomacy in canceling the binding order that I had placed with my supplier. That one cost me thousands, and I won in restitution court. The customer paid me most of my damages. One year later he apologized. This may sound like much, but compared to the total volume of business, we are talking about minor setbacks.   

It defies my imagination in general, why somebody with enough money would turn to scamming. It must be that bitcoin for some reason is a honeypot that attracts people, who already are scammers, to participate. This concentration of scammers and scam-businesses is unheard of, anywhere in the outside world.

It is well-intended that newcomers should be rigorously scanned if they can be accepted to the web-of-trust. But I tell you something: most newcomers don't have the time and/or dedication for that. They come from already-established networks, and there needs to be a way to incorporate this already existing trust to the community.

I mean, of course I can start to use escrow in my dealing with forum people. It is not a big deal really. I do pay taxes, and that is far more expensive and difficult.. But if you really require that (instead of you sending first because I am an established, incorporated business and don't have the luxury of anonymity), I cannot count being part of the community an asset, rather a liability because it worsens my terms of doing business. I hope that there could be a solution. Otherwise I will consider that this is a risk vector to the whole Bitcoin: established people don't want to join because the community is full of scammers, people that are paranoid of scammers, and kids screaming to multimilliondollar businesses that they should use escrow when dealing with them. Phew. I am in first-name terms with the largest bullion dealer in the U.S. and there was a month in 2011 when I was their largest customer in the best-selling product. I can lock-in $500,000 with one phone call of 1 minute and get 7 days to pay. Beat that.

This coin thing is a good one, because the world needs more privacy. How can the community accommodate established people? Or do you turn us down, so that there needs to be another coin for people in good standing?

[John (John K.)]

Hello community,

I am sure this matter has been discussed before, so hopefully you can forward me to some good threads.

The matter is trust. I have for a few months been moderately active in the forum, and Bitcoin itself I know ever since 2010.

I have been doing full-time business for 12 years. My investing experience is 16 years. I have established about 5 companies, been advisor to more, organized tens(!) of financing rounds, and still own, chair and/or run multiple businesses in two countries. Their combined sales are in the range of millions. I am married for 10 years, I have a daughter. One of the companies I lead, has more than 60 shareholders. I have enriched them by selling them silver when it was cheap. They hold several tons(!) of silver in the company's dedicated vault. They have thousands of bitcoins, too. I also have some bitcoins.

I am not old, I'm 32. But I am adult. And I have a hard time with some of the "rules" in this community. Everybody is paranoid as hell. I understand that bitcoinworld is full of scams, but I have a hard time accepting that. Anyone who has been with bitcoin as long as I is sitting on good gains from the value appreciation alone. In the world outside of bitcoin, scamming is not really the modus operandi. I have encountered scammers in my career, yes. One sold me silver-plated trinkets worth € 25,000 with forged documents and an elaborate cover story why they were solid silver. I was relaxed by the appearance of this 60-year old gentleman with his 25-yo son and their family company. Another time I was defrauded of 300 grams of gold. I paid first to a long-time customer. He never sent the product and vanished. Luckily I paid only 50% upfront. Then another one bought 20,000 oz of silver and did not pay. I had quite a diplomacy in canceling the binding order that I had placed with my supplier. That one cost me thousands, and I won in restitution court. The customer paid me most of my damages. One year later he apologized. This may sound like much, but compared to the total volume of business, we are talking about minor setbacks.   

It defies my imagination in general, why somebody with enough money would turn to scamming. It must be that bitcoin for some reason is a honeypot that attracts people, who already are scammers, to participate. This concentration of scammers and scam-businesses is unheard of, anywhere in the outside world.

It is well-intended that newcomers should be rigorously scanned if they can be accepted to the web-of-trust. But I tell you something: most newcomers don't have the time and/or dedication for that. They come from already-established networks, and there needs to be a way to incorporate this already existing trust to the community.

I mean, of course I can start to use escrow in my dealing with forum people. It is not a big deal really. I do pay taxes, and that is far more expensive and difficult.. But if you really require that (instead of you sending first because I am an established, incorporated business and don't have the luxury of anonymity), I cannot count being part of the community an asset, rather a liability because it worsens my terms of doing business. I hope that there could be a solution. Otherwise I will consider that this is a risk vector to the whole Bitcoin: established people don't want to join because the community is full of scammers, people that are paranoid of scammers, and kids screaming to multimilliondollar businesses that they should use escrow when dealing with them. Phew. I am in first-name terms with the largest bullion dealer in the U.S. and there was a month in 2011 when I was their largest customer in the best-selling product. I can lock-in $500,000 with one phone call of 1 minute and get 7 days to pay. Beat that.

This coin thing is a good one, because the world needs more privacy. How can the community accommodate established people? Or do you turn us down, so that there needs to be another coin for people in good standing?

You could start off by publishing the information pertaining to your established businesses like the website, business registration number, references etc.

[Raoul Duke]

I can't tell you the exact method to gain trust, but I can tell you that this kind of thread, the way it's written, will get you nowhere near that path.

[Bit_Happy]

Scammers make it harder for good people.

[rpietila]

I can't tell you the exact method to gain trust, but I can tell you that this kind of thread, the way it's written, will get you nowhere near that path.

Thank you for this insight. How do you evaluate John's comment? Is anything that he wrote helpful for you to gain more trust in me, in case I would comply with the ideas.

As you are a long-term forum member yourself, perhaps you could indeed do me a favor and link something that has been discussed before.

This thread is about trust in general. Of course I have a plan to increase "my" trust. I can do it by writing more posts with value and insight. I can seek to buy/sell/loan BTC in micro amounts and gain some ratings. But I find this method too expensive. I am working in several companies and one of them pays me by the hour, I get €37 net. I have to understand that my time has a cost.

If I choose not to write on this forum, I can work and gain BTC1 (approximately). This bitcoin in a few years' time will be worth much more. My "total time logged in" is currently 58 hours. This is about BTC56, almost $3000! Seldom I get an appreciative comment of my posts. I don't know if I am bringing value to the community equal to the investment. As a businessman, you should aim to make something that is more valuable than the cost of producing it 

So I figured out that I would rather give out money and sell some goods/services below the most economical price point for me. I have been tipping rather generously all good services that I have seen. Then I was checking that the European gold and silver for bitcoin dealers had rather steep markups. I had not had plans to enter that area which I saw quite niche. Well, due to the runup in bitcoin value, there probably should be buyers for metals that are cheaper than anyone else's, so I posted some threads. So far, no business. I put some silver coins up for auction. No bids (yet - I admit it's been there for 12 hours and people sleep at night), even if the minimum price is lower than the melt value of it. My plan of gaining trust by giving out standard goods for cheap is clearly failing. Not only I can not buy trust with money, I seem to lose it 

In my opinion, this is a flaw in the community design, that we must amend. I am a Christian. When I accepted the Lord, then the rules of the game are that Lord is, I am not. I mean, there is no room for your own will. It is really like going through the eye of a needle, and the process is going on and only few will become perfect in this age. But now we are talking about Bitcoin. It is detrimental to the whole system if you need religion-like devotion and spend all your time increasing your postcount. For a mass adoption (such as Facebook) bor bitcoin, the existing social networks need to be made available. I am watching Ripple with interest, but their XRP distribution model I don't like. However it seems to me that their design is trying to address this issue.

For long I have been thinking, as a simple millionaire (not multimillionaire - I mean), why Bitcoin is still, 4+ years after inception, dominated by people with brilliant technical insight, but there is a sore underrepresentation of established businessmen, who would develop non-hack, non-scam services for the community. You know, the old stuff of having good purchasing department, good logistics, reliable procedures, claim management, ability to make good on promises, etc. I think I have found the answer.

I strongly suspect that most bitcoinworld hacks are inside jobs. Somebody has calculated how many hours he must invest in order to gain trust in the community, despite being an untrustworthy member of the society. Then he develops some service and runs with the coins at the right moment, claiming that it was a hack. Happened too many times to be a coincidence. A scammer has enough time to build his "trust" like this, because the payoff is great. An honest businessman that tries to sell his product at a competitive price, and who has reserved some margin for risk and claims management, cannot do it. The investment is not paying off.

Sirius showed his new project when he gave the keynote speech in our club last month:
http://www.rvl.io/mmalmi/identifi
 
I have been hesitant to collection of private data, but could that be a solution for someone whose intent is to help and not defraud, and who therefore has no time nor incentive to gain the "trust" that is currently needed as a licence to steal?

Risto Pietilä
SSN: 020980-109P
Mobile: +358503235950

[John (John K.)]

I've read through your post here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151800.0 to see why you're particular about this 'trust' issue. Please consider the fact that anyone doing some research over the internet can easily forge and assume someone else's identity easily unless there's some verification measures taken in hand. Your thread there provides absolutely nothing except stating that you're Risto Pietilä, and you're the owner of Eesti Investeerimishobe OU, which someone else could easily state too. I would suggest you start off by adding a small entry on your silverbank.net site (https://www.silverbank.net/index.php/en/meista/our-company) stating that you're rpietila on bitcointalk.org. That would help link your identity here in order to establish trust.  You can also link yourself on Twitter/ other business websites that you own etc to prove that you're this guy we're talking with.

I wish you good luck in your business here.

[rpietila]

I've read through your post here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151800.0 to see why you're particular about this 'trust' issue. Please consider the fact that anyone doing some research over the internet can easily forge and assume someone else's identity easily unless there's some verification measures taken in hand. Your thread there provides absolutely nothing except stating that you're Risto Pietilä, and you're the owner of Eesti Investeerimishobe OU, which someone else could easily state too. I would suggest you start off by adding a small entry on your silverbank.net site (https://www.silverbank.net/index.php/en/meista/our-company) stating that you're rpietila on bitcointalk.org. That would help link your identity here in order to establish trust.  You can also link yourself on Twitter/ other business websites that you own etc to prove that you're this guy we're talking with.

I wish you good luck in your business here.

Oh, I see your point. Being half-anonymous seems to be as practical as being half-pregnant...

Silverbank.net website updated:
https://www.silverbank.net/index.php/en/meista/our-company

[John (John K.)]

I've read through your post here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=151800.0 to see why you're particular about this 'trust' issue. Please consider the fact that anyone doing some research over the internet can easily forge and assume someone else's identity easily unless there's some verification measures taken in hand. Your thread there provides absolutely nothing except stating that you're Risto Pietilä, and you're the owner of Eesti Investeerimishobe OU, which someone else could easily state too. I would suggest you start off by adding a small entry on your silverbank.net site (https://www.silverbank.net/index.php/en/meista/our-company) stating that you're rpietila on bitcointalk.org. That would help link your identity here in order to establish trust.  You can also link yourself on Twitter/ other business websites that you own etc to prove that you're this guy we're talking with.

I wish you good luck in your business here.

Oh, I see your point. Being half-anonymous seems to be as practical as being half-pregnant...

Silverbank.net website updated:
https://www.silverbank.net/index.php/en/meista/our-company

Yeah, you either go all in or go all anonymous. To build trust as an anonymous person would be quite hard, although I admit it's quite possible either. To start off quickly without having to build the trust needed painstakingly, prior references would be good as a starting point.

[rpietila]

To start off quickly without having to build the trust needed painstakingly, prior references would be good as a starting point.

Yes, exactly. That is the whole point. In the world out there, many people far more excellent than the one speaking, are waiting to join and serve the community. What are the recommended ways how to transfer the existing trust? Practically. Could you please write a concise guide? Even today I am attending a club meeting with 10-15 people in the same situation as I or 6-months behind. Your help will be a great benefit!

[BIGMERVE]

I have been doing full-time business for 12 years. My investing experience is 16 years. I have established about 5 companies, been advisor to more, organized tens(!) of financing rounds, and still own, chair and/or run multiple businesses in two countries. Their combined sales are in the range of millions. I am married for 10 years, I have a daughter. One of the companies I lead, has more than 60 shareholders. I have enriched them by selling them silver when it was cheap. They hold several tons(!) of silver in the company's dedicated vault. They have thousands of bitcoins, too. I also have some bitcoins.

[John (John K.)]

To start off quickly without having to build the trust needed painstakingly, prior references would be good as a starting point.

Yes, exactly. That is the whole point. In the world out there, many people far more excellent than the one speaking, are waiting to join and serve the community. What are the recommended ways how to transfer the existing trust? Practically. Could you please write a concise guide? Even today I am attending a club meeting with 10-15 people in the same situation as I or 6-months behind. Your help will be a great benefit!

I can only give a general write up on that as the existing trust for the person involved differs greatly person by person. An obvious and fast method would be to 'link' yourself easily, like what you did just now, and publish the fact when trying to buy/sell/conduct trade that requires trust upfront. Another would be to establish oneself by having other repped' members vouch for him, but that will depend on the level of trust the voucher commands.

An example of someone using his real-world trust here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141608.msg1508486#msg1508486

Just in case why you're wondering that the level of paranoia is high here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119896.0
We're dealing with a currency that is highly anonymous and virtually impossible to reverse.

[micky123]

I have been wanting to post another topic similar to this one. I want to be able to gain trust on my account. Not for scamming or unethical purposes coz im never, ever gonna sell my account. I just like the nice green trust to be seen next to my name and that's the honest truth.

These are a few things i have thought of, please let me know if this is feasible and within forum rules:

1) Take a loan and payback on time - Well, i really have no need of a loan, but have seen cases where positive feedback is given when loans are taken and paid back on time.
2) Sell some BTC through threads - This seems to be the easiest method to gain trust, but i guess no one is going to trust me because i have NO POSITIVE TRUST! LOL!
3) Act as an escrow - This way i could get positive feedback from both parties, but again no one will trust me an an escrow as i have no positive trust.
4) Giveaways - I believe giveaways are also a great way to gain trust, just that alt coin giveaways are banned

If you can think of anymore, i would like to hear of it. Please don'd give me negative trust for asking

Thank you!