Can Coinjoin transactions be traced? Busting Bitcoin privacy myths!

[Kruw]

Personally, I combine toxic change with other toxic change where lack of privacy is minimum.

Why not use WabiSabi instead of Whirlpool so you don't have toxic change and have no lack of privacy at all?

You do not consolidate your private coins in the the coinjoin, but after it, using a mix partner.

If you are using a second coinjoin to solve the privacy flaw of the initial Whirlpool coinjoin, then why not just perform a single coinjoin that doesn't have the initial privacy flaw so you can cut through these two transactions?

Completely irrelevant and debunked already: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5471645.msg63120005#msg63120005.

2 - Tx0 clearly pays the coordinator, and this output is easily identified. The privacy of Whirlpool coinjoins does not depend on this fee payment being secret. It does not matter if you and I both pay to the same coordinator address - there is zero loss of privacy.

So the Whirlpool coordinator's output is easily identified. That's unfortunate...

Let's compare this privacy loss in Whirlpool to a WabiSabi coinjoin where the coordinator fee adds to the anonymity set: Which output is the coordinator fee???  https://mempool.space/tx/74254011886f8bcbc19269030a07d3e63cee242492f7a32818152e51995e6d31

Still waiting for the answers to all of these questions.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Aren't you tired already from playing it stupid? I mean, Jesus. Do you think the viewers of your discussions can't tell you're one big hypocrite? You're really asking me to answer why I would rather use Whirlpool over WabiSabi, after all been said for the last two (or three?) years?

Literally everything in these questions has been answered in the past. Anyone still trying to figure out those answers can just use a search engine like ninjastic.space. The tl;dr is that Wasabi is a clown fest. I'd rather not engage in discussions about it anymore, if I may. I think I deserve this. There really isn't anything more to say.

[Kruw]

You're really asking me to answer why I would rather use Whirlpool over WabiSabi

Yes. Why can't you answer that question?

[PrivacyG]

Aren't you tired already from playing it stupid? I mean, Jesus. Do you think the viewers of your discussions can't tell you're one big hypocrite?

At this point, any body who reads a discussion in which Kruw has participated and decides Kruw is to be trusted deserves the future consequences of their own stupidity.  Such as nodding their head in agreement to Kruw back when he pointed fingers at us for arguing against Censorship.  Whoever stood for the childish arguments Kruw had back then looks pretty silly now when you have Kruw himself running an uncensored coordinator, which is doing the exact opposite of what he said himself, which was that Censorship is the morally correct thing to do.

We both know Wasabi is NOT to be trusted and I would definitely have many other options over it.  Hell.  I would rather trust a Centralized Exchange which says up front that they impose Know Your Customer than some body like Kruw and the Services he advertises.  Particularly when equal or better competitors to Wasabi always get a spit in the face from Kruw with no reason when ever he gets the chance to do it.  I like people being up front.  Particularly when I decide whether to choose their product or not.  Tell me you arbitrarily ask for Know Your Customer and I will be an idiot if I drop my money thinking I will not be asked for it.  But when I ask a question and it always gets derailed, how the hell am I supposed to trust?  When Wasabi claims to be THE solution for Fungibility while differentiating one Bitcoin for another and THE Wallet for Privacy while imposing Censorship, which is very 1984 ish, how am I supposed to trust their product?

I forgot.  'Wasabi is TRUSTLESS!'.  Sure.  How dare I even THINK about trust.  I completely forgot their stance was different.  More like, ignore the red flags, shut up, close your eyes and hand us your Money.  Do not ask questions, or else you are an idiot.  And a Scammer, too.  And probably an Alt of Samourai.

Like I previously said.  Kruw could do astonishingly well as a Politician considering the expertise of avoiding any legitimate question, derailing discussions and talking about apples when asked about pears.  This is a skill no body wants but he proudly showcases at all times.

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Yes. Why can't you answer that question?

Why can you not answer so many questions and always answer only what is convenient?  The glasses, Kruw.  We are back to where we started, they are either dirty again or you need to get your eyes checked because they seem to skip so many questions all the time.  I am starting to get really worried!

[Kruw]

At this point, any body who reads a discussion in which Kruw has participated and decides Kruw is to be trusted deserves the future consequences of their own stupidity.

You don't have to trust me.

We both know Wasabi is NOT to be trusted and I would definitely have many other options over it.

You don't have to trust Wasabi. It's trustless open source software.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Whoever stood for the childish arguments Kruw had back then looks pretty silly now when you have Kruw himself running an uncensored coordinator, which is doing the exact opposite of what he said himself, which was that Censorship is the morally correct thing to do.

Oh, yes. The censorship chapter of this saga, unending. "You shouldn't coinjoin if you're a criminal" <-- they've literally said that. If you read that post, you can see Max arguing that Bitcoin is permissioned, and you can send "bad coins" only if you own hashrate or bribe a miner. And we're supposed to trust the skills of these clowns.

Oh, and since I've sent you to that post already, read my favorite part:

There’s a lot of nuance here, but in general what we can say is: yes—that is another precedent that UTXOs are not fungible, that there is metadata associated to UTXOs that are outside of the consensus implementation. And that’s just super difficult because now you’re gonna have different surveillance companies that have different blacklists and different risk scores associated to it. And now you have competing soft forked clients, basically, that reach a different consensus of which coins are good and which coins are bad. And well—there’s no solution to it.

There is no solution to which coins are good and bad, but let's buy chain analysis crap data and grant them control over who gets to coinjoin and who doesn't.  

[Kruw]

Unlike coinjoins with a fixed output size chosen by the coordinator, WabiSabi coinjoins organize output amounts optimistically from the client side. When creating huge rounds with lots inputs, it's easy for clients to match their output amounts with each other. With smaller rounds, the efficiency decreases. For this reason, the default coordinator in Wasabi Wallet requires at least 150 inputs for a round to begin, but other coordinators may require lower input minimums. For example, this WabiSabi coinjoin only has 40 inputs: https://mempool.space/tx/9709771a2dc9a1343327776a1f52e6ae75adb981cabdab449408099d5851baf2

[Kruw]

A new challenger has appeared! dkbit98 claims Bitcoin is not anonymous. However, he was unable to trace a WabiSabi coinjoin:

Bitcoin Is Not Anonymous.

Okay, prove it then. Show me which specific outputs were created from each input of this coinjoin transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/d26a197368167f7ed2e57bd7257d9d353131bd5e7a03fcc91c68828edbb2a210