2021-1-25 Fortune - As BTC ETFs stall, a new $180m crypto trust fund goes public

[acquafredda]

There are many quirks to Bitcoin investing, but one of the biggest ones is that regulators have refused to approve an exchange-traded fund that holds the digital currency. In the absence of an ETF—which investors use as a cheap and easy way to get exposure to various assets —companies have turned to a workaround in the form of trusts to offer Bitcoin on the stock market.

https://fortune.com/2021/01/27/bitcoin-etf-crypto-trust-fund-goes-public/

The number of Grayscale competitors grow once again: after Bitwise and 3IQ likewise started offering competing products, now it is the turn of Ninepoint. The battle is now on the premium and the fees, but I do not think that any other player can beat the unbelievable results that Grayscale had in 2020.
https://www.ninepoint.com/about-ninepoint/press-releases/bitcoin-trust-files-preliminary-prospectus/

[cr1776]

Good news!

The fees at GBTC seem excessive and competition will only help both fees to decrease, but also lockups and the premium people were willing to pay to buy GBTC.  If the SEC would stop being such luddites, they could resolve the issue quite quickly by just approving the ETF.

[acquafredda]

Good news!

The fees at GBTC seem excessive and competition will only help both fees to decrease, but also lockups and the premium people were willing to pay to buy GBTC.  If the SEC would stop being such luddites, they could resolve the issue quite quickly by just approving the ETF.

The time of ETFs is not here yet. I have been following all the news regarding them since VanEck et al. but as you say the SEC is playing barricades every time. Whatever, bitcoin investing tool are on the rise and loads of money have been poured and will be poured into them. I believe a true bitcoin etf with the seal of approval by the SEC will institutionalize btc for good. It is about the time, I can wait.

[posi]

In a situation where company like the Grayscale is doing well sooner or later they will have competitors in the line of the business just like we see in the DApp and smart contract business after Ethereum gained a lot of support from the crypto currency investors. Company like Bitwise, 3IQ and others will always live in the shadow of Grayscale, if they continue to be honest with their services.

[figmentofmyass]

Good news!

The fees at GBTC seem excessive and competition will only help both fees to decrease, but also lockups and the premium people were willing to pay to buy GBTC.  If the SEC would stop being such luddites, they could resolve the issue quite quickly by just approving the ETF.

it's good news but given that it's a small canadian fund, i don't have the highest hopes. they currently hold ~5600 BTC vs grayscale's ~650k. that first mover advantage is significant in terms of the public market's liquidity, and that really matters to investors and traders, especially since ninepoint is a relative unknown. if you think about it, 1.3% annually (what shareholders would save by switching from GBTC to BITC.U) is nothing compared to bitcoin's potential price movements.

when the SEC finally approves a fund available to non-accredited investors, it'll be a game changer for sure. the american retail market is still largely untapped, and i think large institutions like pension funds/asset managers will eventually be holding ETF shares instead of the current primary available option---futures contracts, which are not ideal for long term investment.

[Karartma1]

Good news!

The fees at GBTC seem excessive and competition will only help both fees to decrease, but also lockups and the premium people were willing to pay to buy GBTC.  If the SEC would stop being such luddites, they could resolve the issue quite quickly by just approving the ETF.

it's good news but given that it's a small canadian fund, i don't have the highest hopes. they currently hold ~5600 BTC vs grayscale's ~650k. that first mover advantage is significant in terms of the public market's liquidity, and that really matters to investors and traders, especially since ninepoint is a relative unknown. if you think about it, 1.3% annually (what shareholders would save by switching from GBTC to BITC.U) is nothing compared to bitcoin's potential price movements.

when the SEC finally approves a fund available to non-accredited investors, it'll be a game changer for sure. the american retail market is still largely untapped, and i think large institutions like pension funds/asset managers will eventually be holding ETF shares instead of the current primary available option---futures contracts, which are not ideal for long term investment.

Exactamundo  As I wrote somewhere else we are seeing small but important incremental steps into the right direction. Maybe it's very good and healthy that we haven't had such ETFs approved so far: if you think the price levels and recognition that bitcoin has had in the last years, imagine what could happen when another market share like that will open.
That is the bright side, on the dark side I am still very much concerned about the fact that bitcoin needs to evolve its fungibility properties. But that's for another thread.

[acquafredda]

I never thought we would need a bitcoin ETF that bad. Being an old timer I would like that everyone would take his/her responsibility and do some proper research before getting onboard the bitcoin train. ETF or not, bitcoin journey is unstoppable.
There are already far too many coins being raided by GBTC and friends, that is enough for now. 

[bbc.reporter]

Good news!

The fees at GBTC seem excessive and competition will only help both fees to decrease, but also lockups and the premium people were willing to pay to buy GBTC.  If the SEC would stop being such luddites, they could resolve the issue quite quickly by just approving the ETF.

Agreed. Also the assets under these bitcoin trusts are not redeemable not similar to the real ETFs. All the billions invested in them would strictly be locked up. It would certainly be better for institutions to buy bitcoins for themselves.

[Theb]

I don't see any problems regarding having additional trust funds here in the market since competition is something what we really need and these types of trust funds will always find a way to co-exist and grab some market share of their own. Sometimes its not even about their fees or the performance of their fund because most of the time it is always about their marketing and their sales agent attracting new investors who are interested in a riskier investment. With that being said lets see if people are really interested in a Bitcoin trust fund since it definitely caters to a riskier audience and I think this tends to be more for the younger generation we have its really up to them if they want to trade on their own or with another person doing it.

[Lucius]

The time of ETFs is not here yet. I have been following all the news regarding them since VanEck et al. but as you say the SEC is playing barricades every time. Whatever, bitcoin investing tool are on the rise and loads of money have been poured and will be poured into them. I believe a true bitcoin etf with the seal of approval by the SEC will institutionalize btc for good. It is about the time, I can wait.

It is too early to say what the SEC will decide this time, but so far we have two applications that are active and there is always a chance of a positive outcome. Even though the prevailing opinion is that such an ETF will not be approved this year either, it will be interesting to see what the reasons for such a decision will be. In order for something like this to be approved in the future, it is important to apply and try to adapt to what the SEC will write in its decision.

You should also know that there are two different types of ETFs, the physical one that will actually buy BTC and sell shares in the fund, and the one that will operate on the principle of futures. According to some experts, the ETF will inflate the price of BTC in the short term, but may have negative consequences in the long run.

[acquafredda]

The time of ETFs is not here yet. I have been following all the news regarding them since VanEck et al. but as you say the SEC is playing barricades every time. Whatever, bitcoin investing tool are on the rise and loads of money have been poured and will be poured into them. I believe a true bitcoin etf with the seal of approval by the SEC will institutionalize btc for good. It is about the time, I can wait.

It is too early to say what the SEC will decide this time, but so far we have two applications that are active and there is always a chance of a positive outcome. Even though the prevailing opinion is that such an ETF will not be approved this year either, it will be interesting to see what the reasons for such a decision will be. In order for something like this to be approved in the future, it is important to apply and try to adapt to what the SEC will write in its decision.

You should also know that there are two different types of ETFs, the physical one that will actually buy BTC and sell shares in the fund, and the one that will operate on the principle of futures. According to some experts, the ETF will inflate the price of BTC in the short term, but may have negative consequences in the long run.

Whatever the consequences in the long run, negative or positive, we do not need this instrument right now. Investors can come anytime, we wait for them and do not need to wait for an ETF. I remember how stupid I was in 2016 when there was all that fuss about an ETF approval. I remember the comments here where people would argue that we would need it to reach higher prices. We were so naive. There is no need for ETFs for bitcoin to fulfill its disruptive role, am I right?

[Lucius]

~snip~

If we were guided by the guideline "we don't need this or that" we could say that we don't need any service that undermines the idea of Bitcoin as a decentralized currency - and we all know that there are already a lot of them. An ETF is just a logical sequence of things, it's only a matter of time before it becomes a reality - and then the biggest influx of money could happen, because it's the easiest way for big investors to invest in anything without having to know anything about it.

While I don’t like to compare gold and Bitcoin, the fact is that the first gold ETF was launched in 2003 and that at the time the price of gold was only around $300 per ounce. Ten years later, that price reached $1600 per ounce.

The BTC ETF is not something that Bitcoin cannot do without, but when it happens it will be something that will make investing very easy for those who have the most money.

[acquafredda]

To quote the Dude, that is just my opinion man 
When I look at all the available third-party financial instruments that can be leveraged to get some exposure to an asset I simply find it hard to understand that people do not go that extra mile and, in the case of bitcoin, consider a direct investment for it. Even publicly traded companies (not many as we speak), are able to get their direct exposure.
Of course, for the sake of convenience ETFs will come eventually and, as you mention, the guys with the most money will get their hands on btc.

[Lucius]

You may have noticed, but extremely rich people are not always the ones who should be considered too intelligent. Those who have created something out of nothing certainly do not fall into that category, but there are a lot of rich people who have inherited that wealth and their technical reach is to turn on the computer and withdraw money at the ATM.

The vast majority of investors are not able to understand the basics at all, non-custodial wallets are for them something like nuclear physics - so we can say that for the average investor simplification when buying BTC is something crucial that will attract him to it. Regardless of all the possible instruments that exist today, for some the ETF will be a sign that it is time to start investing in BTC - and until then, it's up to us little ones to fight for every satoshi - because ETFs won't be something most of us can participate in anyway.

[acquafredda]

You may have noticed, but extremely rich people are not always the ones who should be considered too intelligent. Those who have created something out of nothing certainly do not fall into that category, but there are a lot of rich people who have inherited that wealth and their technical reach is to turn on the computer and withdraw money at the ATM.

The vast majority of investors are not able to understand the basics at all, non-custodial wallets are for them something like nuclear physics - so we can say that for the average investor simplification when buying BTC is something crucial that will attract him to it. Regardless of all the possible instruments that exist today, for some the ETF will be a sign that it is time to start investing in BTC - and until then, it's up to us little ones to fight for every satoshi - because ETFs won't be something most of us can participate in anyway.

You made your point very clear and I do follow your reasoning. It is very stupid and naive to think that, like I sometimes do, every entity that come close to bitcoin (being a retail or an institutional investor) would take some time to understand the basics which are indeed very hard to grasp (for us too).
In the end, you make yourself absolutely right as it is up to us, the little ones, to fight for every satoshi available.