Genesis' crypto lending (Genesis Global Capital) halts withdrawals

[NeuroticFish]

Is this only fud or are news writers beginning to be correct as some of them were correct in their speculations on FTX?

1. The number of individuals having money at FTX was huge. The number of individuals being invested in FTT was not small either, I think. They're still angry, especially as Sam is still free and more of his ties come out every day.
2. People care more on what has already happened to them than to what might happen to others.
3. Media tries hard to milk every click and view on these topics, hence both directions - Sam/FSX/Alameda and what other services may be affected/fall - are monetized heavily.

At this point people who have lost all their coins don't care if bitcoin rises and falls, and they're many. So many news, alarming and well documented, may go rather unnoticed (or way less noticed compared to the boring days, at least). Plus keep in mind the powerful bears may try to use current panic in their advantage too. All in all, I think that Bitcoin cannot go much lower (we're down from 69k to 15.5k), so those who still have coins won't be that much impressed by news any longer either.

So in the grand scheme of things Genesis Global collapse (and others' too) would not be a huge surprise, but also may not be perceived as the end of the world. We're past that (FTX had that that effect). I guess that only Binance's demise could take away that "crown". But we seem to be lucky and that doesn't seem to be at the horizon.


Edit: it looks like some of the people with money start buying in parts of the exposed / falling businesses. This can loosen the pressure.
Cathie Wood Buys $1.4M Of GBTC — Even As World's Largest Bitcoin Fund Faces Pressure From Genesis Fallout

[bbc.reporter]

@NeuroticFish. Cathie Wood hehehee. I am not very confident on her investment decisions since the market began to reverse from bull to bear. It appears that what some of the wisest men of trading have said is true. Everyone can look like be a genius during a bull market, however, the real geniuses will be seen during a bear market.

The person to watch during a bear market is Michael Burry. Everyone can check his investment decisions through Scion Capital's 13F filings.

[NeuroticFish]

Cathie Wood hehehee. I am not very confident on her investment decisions since the market began to reverse from bull to bear.

The name doesn't ring a bell. Still, she may not be alone in this, since I see Genesis Capital has "no plans to file bankruptcy imminently" and the bitcoin price seems to be recovering (probably meaning a bit more confidence).

I start thinking that some of the businesses with a little better background may be helped out or bought by those who have money. Pretty much standard operations during recession (and some may have had money prepared exactly because recession was/is at the horizon).

[stompix]

Edit: it looks like some of the people with money start buying in parts of the exposed / falling businesses. This can loosen the pressure.
Cathie Wood Buys $1.4M Of GBTC — Even As World's Largest Bitcoin Fund Faces Pressure From Genesis Fallout

FTX losses $8 billion, somebody buys $4 million of shares, we just need about 2 000 more of these and maybe we will get back in the system the same amount of money that has evaporated. Of course, without any guarantee, this new batch of billions won't have the failure of the previous one.

Viewing this from the sideline and not caring a bit about them it's so damn amusing, I remember how there were discussions about how FTX move to buy the failed business was such a great move, how it will help with taxes, the whole blood on the street, and now after that entire fallout, some authors and some "investors" are just promoting the same non-sense.
Let's see how this will go, if Genesis fails also, I hope we will finally get rid of the whole thing with investing in companies that leverage your money in a Ponzi scheme and we stick to buying bitcoins and holding our bitcoins. If a fund can't invest legally in BTC then maybe it's far better to not invest in anything related and keep it traditional than making the mess that pension fund did.

[bbc.reporter]

Cathie Wood hehehee. I am not very confident on her investment decisions since the market began to reverse from bull to bear.

The name doesn't ring a bell. Still, she may not be alone in this, since I see Genesis Capital has "no plans to file bankruptcy imminently" and the bitcoin price seems to be recovering (probably meaning a bit more confidence).

I start thinking that some of the businesses with a little better background may be helped out or bought by those who have money. Pretty much standard operations during recession (and some may have had money prepared exactly because recession was/is at the horizon).

You should do your research on her. Cathie Wood is one of the most celebrated hedgefund managers for outperforming the whole traditional market for the last 8 years. Her hedgefund is Ark Invest which concentrates their investments in disruptive technology including bitcoin. However, we have not yet witnessed how investments in disruptive technology might perform during a recession.  I speculate that it might not be very good hehe.

In any case, agreed and because Genesis is not a ponzi scheme like FTX and Alameda Research, it might be bailed out by someone in the cryptospace.

[stompix]

You should do your research on her. Cathie Wood is one of the most celebrated hedgefund managers for outperforming the whole traditional market for the last 8 years.

So was Madoff!

However, we have not yet witnessed how investments in disruptive technology might perform during a recession.  I speculate that it might not be very good hehe.

Oh yes, we have already the data:

While last year was tremendous for the stock market, with the S&P 500 marching 27% higher, the same can't be said for ARK Innovation. Wood's leading ETF lost 24% in 2021, ranking it 1,471st out of a peer group of 1,503 actively-managed equity ETFs in the U.S., by Barron's calculations.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/cathie-wood-ark-innovation-etf-losses-51648812055

Cathie Wood's flagship ARK fund suffers the biggest monthly outflow in nearly a year as performance continues to suffer

The Ark Invest Disruptive Innovation ETF saw outflows of $820 million in August, just shy of its September 2021 outflow of $939 million, according to data from VettaFi.
But now investors may be growing tired of the consistent underperformance in the once-hot thematic ETF. Since its peak in February 2021, Ark's flagship fund has lost 75%, as a series of aggressive interest rate hikes from the Federal Reserve and elevated inflation concerns put a big dent in longer-duration stocks that are not yet profitable.

And now we know the reason for her aggressive BTC to 1 million calls.
Popcorn time, let's see how much of those previous gains were lies and how much other lies, might add up to 100%, just like Madoff!

[DaveF]

Part of the issue now, and it's all IMO is what existed before the 2008 banking implosion. And to be 100% up font if you bother to do ANY research you can see it was evident that things were going sideways by mid 2007 when interest rates did fall off a cliff. But anyway, back before then you could ALWAYS find a SAFE investment in the 6% range, A+ bonds, some CDs, and so on. To the point that people didn't even bother to move money for an extra 1% here and there.

Then 2008 happened. And you could *not* GET that 1% in a SAFE investment. You could get more but there was risk.

Now people put out these numbers like 8%, other people remember what it used to be like, so 8% does not seem that out of hand since you used to be able to get 6%.
Then greed takes over. And we know how this all ends up.

-Dave

[bbc.reporter]

You should do your research on her. Cathie Wood is one of the most celebrated hedgefund managers for outperforming the whole traditional market for the last 8 years.

So was Madoff!

However, we have not yet witnessed how investments in disruptive technology might perform during a recession.  I speculate that it might not be very good hehe.

Oh yes, we have already the data:

While last year was tremendous for the stock market, with the S&P 500 marching 27% higher, the same can't be said for ARK Innovation. Wood's leading ETF lost 24% in 2021, ranking it 1,471st out of a peer group of 1,503 actively-managed equity ETFs in the U.S., by Barron's calculations.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/cathie-wood-ark-innovation-etf-losses-51648812055

Cathie Wood's flagship ARK fund suffers the biggest monthly outflow in nearly a year as performance continues to suffer

The Ark Invest Disruptive Innovation ETF saw outflows of $820 million in August, just shy of its September 2021 outflow of $939 million, according to data from VettaFi.
But now investors may be growing tired of the consistent underperformance in the once-hot thematic ETF. Since its peak in February 2021, Ark's flagship fund has lost 75%, as a series of aggressive interest rate hikes from the Federal Reserve and elevated inflation concerns put a big dent in longer-duration stocks that are not yet profitable.

And now we know the reason for her aggressive BTC to 1 million calls.
Popcorn time, let's see how much of those previous gains were lies and how much other lies, might add up to 100%, just like Madoff!

Are you telling everyone that all of Ark Invest's exchange traded funds and declared profits from these funds are ponzi schemes and fake profits? Also, Cathie Wood is a scammer very much similar to Bernie Maddoff? I admire skepticsm from this people of the forum, however, the comparison is very wrong and head shaking.

In any case, has anyone found new updates if Barry Silbert and Genesis Global found a debtor to give them a loan of $1 billion?

[stompix]

Are you telling everyone that all of Ark Invest's exchange traded funds and declared profits from these funds are ponzi schemes and fake profits? Also, Cathie Wood is a scammer very much similar to Bernie Maddoff? I admire skepticsm from this people of the forum, however, the comparison is very wrong and head shaking.

If I would have told you that SBF is not the JP Morgan he thinks he is, that behind the billions in FTX there are just a couple of millions, that their internal documents were stored on emails, that there is no accounting being done, that nobody knew who really worked there or not,  how would you have reacted when you saw FTX as the everything killer that might take over the world?

If the Madoff scheme was allowed to happen for years, if FTX managed to fool everyone, then what's so special about ARK that it can't be a failure too? Remember that ARK did all the past profits on booming markets, when the shit has finally hit the fan they are losing billions, just like cryptos, and if those can go bankrupt, what's stopping the same from happening here too?

Basically, the whole defense you put for AK is, no this can't be real, cause...I don't want to. 

In any case, has anyone found new updates if Barry Silbert and Genesis Global found a debtor to give them a loan of $1 billion?

Guess not:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/business/dealbook/genesis-crypto-restructuring-adviser.html
Oh, and they need 2.8 billion just to cover debt at this point.

[bbc.reporter]

Are you telling everyone that all of Ark Invest's exchange traded funds and declared profits from these funds are ponzi schemes and fake profits? Also, Cathie Wood is a scammer very much similar to Bernie Maddoff? I admire skepticsm from this people of the forum, however, the comparison is very wrong and head shaking.

If I would have told you that SBF is not the JP Morgan he thinks he is, that behind the billions in FTX there are just a couple of millions, that their internal documents were stored on emails, that there is no accounting being done, that nobody knew who really worked there or not,  how would you have reacted when you saw FTX as the everything killer that might take over the world?

If the Madoff scheme was allowed to happen for years, if FTX managed to fool everyone, then what's so special about ARK that it can't be a failure too? Remember that ARK did all the past profits on booming markets, when the shit has finally hit the fan they are losing billions, just like cryptos, and if those can go bankrupt, what's stopping the same from happening here too?

Basically, the whole defense you put for AK is, no this can't be real, cause...I don't want to. 

In any case, has anyone found new updates if Barry Silbert and Genesis Global found a debtor to give them a loan of $1 billion?

Guess not:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/business/dealbook/genesis-crypto-restructuring-adviser.html
Oh, and they need 2.8 billion just to cover debt at this point.

Agreed. There is nothing special about Ark Invest, however, we cannot compare Ark and FTX as something similar unless you are also implying that Ark is also a criminal enterprise very much like FTX. If that is the argument, I reckon you are implying that anything can be a ponzi scheme? Would it be correct for us to tell everyone that Black Rock Future Tech, Goldman Sachs Future Tech, VanEck Bitcoin Strategy or Grayscale Bitcoin Trust are ponzi schemes only because FTX was a money laundering operation and also a ponzi scheme? That would be quite head shaking hehehehe.

[bbc.reporter]

News update.

It appears Barry Silbert's problems concerning Genesis Global Capital is having problems. Creditors have rejected the restructuring plan. Do they not trust Barry? I am quite certain the Winklevii do not hehe. We can only speculate that the deal is more advantageous only to Barry than the creditors. This is not how to do business, I reckon.



Genesis Global filed a motion asking the courts to supply a mediator after some creditors backed out of the bankrupt crypto lender’s restructuring plans.

Genesis owes around $3.5 billion to its top 50 creditors, including Gemini — the exchange co-created by the Winklevoss twins.

Source https://blockworks.co/news/genesis-petitions-for-mediator