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Author Topic: First they ignore you: Are we (the Bitcoin/crypto users) about to win?  (Read 180 times)
d5000 (OP)
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May 27, 2024, 07:47:19 PM
 #21

People who are really concerned about censorship represent a very tiny percentage of the total voters.
This is true if you only take into account the sub-group "Bitcoin users concerned about privacy".

But on one hand, pro-privacy groups are often quite large. For example in several European countries there is a big "pro-cash" movement rejecting credit cards, CDBCs and cash restrictions. They do often not care about BTC, but this is a often much bigger group the pro-privacy Bitcoin group could unite forces with. There are also all these groups against Internet surveillance (e.g. NSA), which have scored several political victories in the past, even if their battles are far from over.

On the other hand, of the Bitcoin users there's a constant trickle-in into pro-privacy ideas. For example, if we take Bitcointalk, I think most people come here for "personal profit" reasons (bounties, investment advice ...), but then the probability that they'll stumble upon pro-privacy content is quite high. The percentage may be lower on other platforms but imo it's never zero - because eventually people read about the word *censorship resistance* and what it means for Bitcoin's potential success. In other words: If you start to think about "why I'm really investing in BTC?" then you're often on the right path.

Politicians only are pro-Bitcoin when there are elections close? Yes, this is indeed a danger. But politicians promising and never delivering are very likely to be voted off. There are several examples of this. It's a process that can take years and even decades, I'm aware of that of course.

Live your life on your own and forget about political affairs.
I think "forgetting" is dangerous because the situation could become even worse, and some day you wake up and are in a 1984-like scenario. Could you then still "live your life on your own"? China for example is already close to this. I'm not saying every Bitcoiner has to become politically active, but at least trying to educate other, new users about privacy and surveillance risks is not a bad idea. (Addition: Anarchism is also an option, i.e. working towards independence from governments.)

Of course not. I find it delusional for you to say this at this point. If you had said it 4 years ago it would still make sense.
I totally agree that we're still not there - that's why I added the question mark and the second part of the post. But something is starting in recent years. Politicians, or at least the agencies they work with (I don't really think Trump himself is a diehard crypto supporter, for example) are considering crypto users as an important voter group. It's a start of a phase which could lead to a victory.

About your other concern - that privacy-aware bitcoin users are a minority, and many are treating it like any other financial asset - see my answer to @uneng.

The big firms that will support these politicians financially are owners of these censorship-promoting firms.
I think this "first phase" of "supposed politic support to crypto" we're living today will be directed to the traditional CEX user who doesn't care about KYC, and the support from tech firms is an important issue. So the movement has to happen inside the crypto community, i.e. more people inside the crypto user group have to become privacy aware for that to change, see above.

The crypto space is moving towards centralization, and only a few people know the danger of this move.
I'd say yes and no to that trend. There is a danger of course, but on the other hand there are examples like Monero. Monero has been delisted from several major exchanges, and now they are needing to move towards increased decentralization, after having partly embraced the traditional CEX/profit culture in the recent past. This is an experiment, of course, and we don't know if they'll succeed, but until now it seems they could hold the price and even recover a bit (current price is $143, after the Binance delisting they were close to $100).

Again for most of the remaining of your post I point to the answer I gave to @uneng - I believe the effort inside the Bitcoin community to educate newer users about the importance of censorship resistance is crucial (perhaps even more important than "becoming politically active").

The division among the crypto community is a disadvantage and the "powers that be" will use that disadvantage for sure.
This is an important point. However, I think this division isn't as deep as it is sometimes affirmed. If a "no-coiner" meets a "NFT investor" and a "Bitcoin maximalist" (which should be on the opposite end of the Bitcoin/crypto user spectrum) and attacks cryptocurrency with the usual arguments like "only for criminals", "environmentally harmful", "ponzi" etc., then I believe even those opposed groups will group together. And the "trickling in into the no-KYC/pro-privacy camp" is probably also true for these groups. At least I see often threads of people asking how they can cash out their NFT/altcoin trading profits without having to demonstrate an origin of funds or so, and this is an excellent opportunity to educate them about the benefits of decentralization.

I also think you underestimate the number of active crypto users. Imo it's at least 100 million (even in a small country like Argentina there are about 5-10 million). Some (e.g. a Singapore agency called Triple-A doing crypto user research) say that India alone has almost 100 million, although of course, most of them could be NFT and stablecoin users, but they're still inside the spectrum I'd mentioned in the last paragraph.

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May 27, 2024, 08:20:16 PM
 #22


Trump is just for memes. i don't think he really can do what he is saying. once he is already a president, he may not really be doing what was promised. all those are forgotten. maybe not all but the government is up to regulate crypto and that is always the case.

one good thing that Trump is doing is making Bitcoin known to everyone through his gatherings. the funny part is that every time he promises something about crypto, there is a crowd shouting yay! it's choreographed.









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May 28, 2024, 07:08:51 PM
 #23

Well to be fair bitcoin world didn't really happen like this, it was a bit different. First a lot of people ignored bitcoin (which was when bitcoin was very small, pre-2013 times). Then a lot of people laughed at bitcoin because it looked not serious at all (this was until 2017 when we reached 20k when people started to take it seriously). But then they joined, that is it and we didn't had any fighting or "winning" since there was no war going on against bitcoin.

Sure there could be a few nations here and there that doesn't like it, but the reality is that a lot of bigger nations (and certainly many smaller ones) liked bitcoin and never had any bad laws about it, and that allowed us to grow even bigger, just look at ETF this year.

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d5000 (OP)
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May 28, 2024, 11:52:40 PM
 #24

[...] we didn't had any fighting or "winning" since there was no war going on against bitcoin.
I dispute that a bit. Two years ago for example in the EU there was a proposed law or regulation to make it illegal to exchange Bitcoin and other PoW currencies on regulated European exchanges. It was at the same time that the European Central Bank also issued some statements about the harm Bitcoin could do, and of course this "Bitcoin obituary" article which is - imo - a really embarassing opinion piece for such a prestigious institution.

The fact that this regulation didn't go through and a pro-Bitcoin movement was forming in the European Parliament was for me the first sign that something was changing with respect to politicians' attitude.

Another example was the bill proposed by Elizabeth Warren and others in the US which would have made miners money transmitters. It's not long ago, but it also seems not to have any chance in the current, a bit more pro-crypto world.

But as I wrote already in the OP, I have the impression that many countries only embrace Bitcoin as a financial asset like many others, being instead afraid or openly hostile about the privacy and censorship resistance aspect. Monero will be probably de facto banned on European regulated exchanges from 2027 on according to AMLD6, even if it is an important tool for Russian dissidents persecuted by the Putin government for example. So there's still a way to go to really "win" if we think Bitcoin (and cryptocurrencies in general) not only as a tool to get rich and speculate but also as a tool to improve freedom, privacy and independence of big institutions in the financial world.

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May 29, 2024, 04:56:31 AM
 #25

If politicians want our vote, then we should insist that they have to commit to censorship resistance and cease all legal action against privacy tools.
You're talking about maximalists, maximalists are clearly lose here, only crypto users are win.

The number of Bitcoin maximalist is really low, the proof is majority of people choose to hold their coins in centralized exchange over non custodial wallet. Even all the maximalists hate the politician and didn't want to vote him, there's a big chance he will win considering a lot people don't care with privacy and self custodial.

I think maximalist will never win since year by year the government want to destroy privacy in Bitcoin.
It doesn't just feel right to me no matter What they do or say,one minute they're against bitcoin,the next minute they're trying to support bitcoin...for what exactly.There a big possibility that these politicians are up to something really huge without our knowledge and they just want to go ahead with thier plans and decisions.
The level of support and orderliness that the cryptocurreny community needs or deserves is been traded for their personal satisfaction.The earlier the better for these realization..

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May 29, 2024, 07:20:59 AM
 #26

      Lucky are the bitcoin holders whose governments support bitcoin or blockchain technology; the adoptions will for sure happen quickly, just like what El Slavador did, where they even made bitcoin legal tender.

     It is true that you say that in the beginning we are not believed; we are laughed at and thought of poorly, but when we succeed in what we believe in bitcoin, they will be silent and their mistake will be realized.

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May 29, 2024, 08:23:49 AM
 #27

There's that well-known poem [1] saying:

First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win.


It there's also a saying that if you can't beat them then you'd have to join them unrelentingly. So for you to win you must be practically and theoretically ready for them in Logics.

So we, the Bitcoin/crypto users, should become even bolder. We shouldn't let politicians fool us with ETFs and other nice financial products. Because cryptocurrencies are not like any other financial product. They are needed to preserve the people's freedom and independence in a digitalized world, as an alternative to their surveillance fantasies (with cooperation from Google, Meta, Apple, OpenAI etc.).

You've spoken well d5000. And to think that was a basic terminology for bitcoin and crypto owners to think they're actually in for us but that shouldn't be the bone of contentions for the crypto holders. ETF approvals isn't the most ultimate in need, we need freed exercises of utilizing our cryptocurrencies.
If any government isn't going to officially adopt it to be legal tender then they should allow everyone of its holders to utilize it as they wanted. Afterall bitcoin in the first place wasn't a particularly projected to be government official tendered but of a p2p which individuals are found comfortable with.
The restrictions of bitcoin and Cryptocurrencies as a whole has seem so much of being an illegal financial technology.
The crypto adoptors needs a free world of legal holding and trading of their crypto assets and not the so ETH of those politicians coming to give promises and implementing what wouldn't Optimize the wider range of crypto adoptions due to the governments rules.

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May 29, 2024, 03:38:52 PM
 #28

Thinking in a victim mindset is not going to be the thing that will get us higher. Bitcoin is not something that is attacked, sure individuals may, but the governments are all approving and regulating it, USA just published their ETF approval this year and we have ETF's from so many different companies already. I think it should be clear that we are going to be something bigger if we boast how great we are, not how we are attacked.

Thinking that we are already getting some backlash is the reason why we should keep saying that we are awesome and everyone knows we are awesome, keep doing that and people will want to join you. If you keep making it like a victim thing then you are going to eventually get attacked for sure.

I feel that currently the politicians all over the world are trying to present cryptocurrencies as a "financial asset" and regulate it as such. And the stance of many authorities towards privacy tools for example is still harsh
Obviously, paying with physical cash is the highly privacy ensuring way and governments cannot do anything about that; similarly technical developments will find its own practices to protect our privacy over the time and no government can do anything with that. Government's recent stance on privacy thing will wake up new inventors to revolutionize this total industry. This may sound too speculative but time will prove its reality.

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May 29, 2024, 04:20:42 PM
 #29

It's probably for the best that some people are mocking us, bitcoin investors, that way, we will still have all the time and we will still be at the golden age of bitcoin and so we can always get more bitcoin for ourselves, now imagine that we're the first here and we know that it will only go up from here, I think that we will be able to get the most profits because we're the ones that believed in bitcoin and those that were laughing at us for investing, they'll eventually change their minds, I'm pretty sure of that and then they regret it. Just keep your head down and keep on investing in bitcoin.



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May 29, 2024, 06:11:32 PM
 #30

Bitcoin has come so far even since I started buying in 2015. I mean we are on Wall Street via the Spot ETFs & we even have a Nation State buying (one so far). Adoption & acceptance in mainstream finance increases every year. Bitcoin is going nowhere, it’s here to stay so hell yeah we are winning.

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May 29, 2024, 06:18:55 PM
 #31

If politicians want our vote, then we should insist that they have to commit to censorship resistance and cease all legal action against privacy tools.
You're talking about maximalists, maximalists are clearly lose here, only crypto users are win.

The number of Bitcoin maximalist is really low, the proof is majority of people choose to hold their coins in centralized exchange over non custodial wallet. Even all the maximalists hate the politician and didn't want to vote him, there's a big chance he will win considering a lot people don't care with privacy and self custodial.

I think maximalist will never win since year by year the government want to destroy privacy in Bitcoin.
It doesn't just feel right to me no matter What they do or say,one minute they're against bitcoin,the next minute they're trying to support bitcoin...for what exactly.There a big possibility that these politicians are up to something really huge without our knowledge and they just want to go ahead with thier plans and decisions.
The level of support and orderliness that the cryptocurreny community needs or deserves is been traded for their personal satisfaction.The earlier the better for these realization..
Politicians will forever remain politicians, they only want to take advantage of certain moments for their personal gain, the same is the case with politicians who side with Bitcoin in particular, if he is just someone who has just appeared and is raving about Bitcoin then we should be suspicious of him, there is little reason supporting bitcoin for the sake of adopting bitcoin, of course the aim is to increase its prestige in the election. Bitcoin has become an important commodity and asset in the world, the discussion is very sensitive, those who rejected Bitcoin at the beginning must be licking their own spit.

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