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Author Topic: pentagon-mass-civil-breakdown  (Read 1389 times)
zolace
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June 19, 2014, 04:45:01 PM
 #21


Good one via The Guardian.  Brushes on some of the topics discussed on this board, and provides one of the most plausible explanations for the scope of intelligence agency internal population surveillance, 'fusion center' construction, etc:

  http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/12/pentagon-mass-civil-breakdown


So the government's stooges are charged with identifying which Americans might instigate civil disobedience and which Americans might join in civil disobedience.  Wont take long for this devolve into an apparatus for jihad on one's political enemies.
America saw this once before . . . in a place called Salem.

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umair127
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June 19, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
 #22

Nothing forestalls violence like the belief you are already defeated. If they can convince enough people of their superiority, people will not chance the effort. Of course they cannot control the US, maybe a few cities, perhaps they can sabotage infrastructure or disperse chemical and biological weapons, but once you start mass killing the population, you have already lost the war.
I see no study for a peaceful withdraw of acceptance or refusal to obey the laws. For the refusal to use FED notes or bank transactions. To withdraw wealth from points the government can control access. They only understand violence and thus, can only imagine a violent start and finish. 
The power of the People is acceptance of the State in all its' guises. Once this is withdrawn, the State withers and dies. 

GangkisKhan
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June 19, 2014, 07:25:37 PM
 #23

Nothing forestalls violence like the belief you are already defeated. If they can convince enough people of their superiority, people will not chance the effort. Of course they cannot control the US, maybe a few cities, perhaps they can sabotage infrastructure or disperse chemical and biological weapons, but once you start mass killing the population, you have already lost the war.
I see no study for a peaceful withdraw of acceptance or refusal to obey the laws. For the refusal to use FED notes or bank transactions. To withdraw wealth from points the government can control access. They only understand violence and thus, can only imagine a violent start and finish.
The power of the People is acceptance of the State in all its' guises. Once this is withdrawn, the State withers and dies.

In the long term, everyone dies. The government can suppress the population for pretty long before dying.

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June 19, 2014, 08:11:32 PM
 #24

Remember that they are just gaming this out. That is what they do, identify threats and discuss options. It would be profoundly negligent of the pentagon to ignore humanities greatest threat. 

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tvbcof (OP)
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June 20, 2014, 08:35:26 PM
 #25

Remember that they are just gaming this out. That is what they do, identify threats and discuss options. It would be profoundly negligent of the pentagon to ignore humanities greatest threat. 

This is actually very important thing to consider.

I remember when there was a very interesting program to spray for 'the light brown apple moth' around the Bay Area some years ago.  The 'problem' was dubious, the parties to contracted to perform the operation were interesting, and the contents of the spray were more interesting yet.  Kind of a series of time release capsules engineered at nearly a nano scale.  Between these things, I hypothesized that it was an experiment that was ready to be performed in a populated urban area.  At the same time I argued to my friends that it the authorities would be remiss in not performing such experiments.  There are a wide variety of situations under which such technology would be a useful component of an arsenal.  Some good and some bad.

All of this technology has the potential to be used for good and for bad things.  The problem is that NOBODY has a crystal ball.  Not the masses nor the leaderships who are commissioning the programs.

Ignoring the potential for mis-use of this technology is completely negligent.  It is pretty close to a certainty that the technology will be attempted to be mis-used at some point in the future.  For this reason it is imperative that coincident with development means of balancing out the new-found powers are also developed.

I, for one, have no real problem with the development of technologies of these types.  It's going to happen.  Period.  Where I have a GIANT problem is in keeping them secret and spurring development along only the offensive track and not the defensive.  The two (secrecy and development focus) are highly interrelated and extremely worrisome.

There are some arguments for keeping everything secret but they are somewhat lame in many cases.  One is that our 'enemies' might be given a jump on development of their own efforts along similar lines.  I hold that this is weak because if they do learn from us, their implementations will be more well understood by us.

Another argument that is especially relevant to the domestic surveillance is that it will tip off the targets and they will change there ways.  This is weak for a variety of reasons.  One is that it is a transient benefit.  Those of us who've been paying attention and understood the technology already more-or-less knew about these programs before Snowden, and a Snowden was likely to come along at some point anyway.  The long and the short of it is that most 'enemies' who are a genuine threat would not gain much by the blanket (and leaky) secrecy and have already made the necessary adjustments.  Indeed, it is possible to use the false sense of secrecy against the very systems that are operating under the assumption that the secrecy exists.

There is very little to be gained by excessive secrecy and a huge amount to be lost (from the perspective of those of us who don't want to see abuses of the systems.)  As Senator Wyden says, if we don't make some changes in terms of how we do domestic surveillance, we will regret it within our lifetimes.  I strongly suspect that he is right about this both generally and in his timeframe.

While nobody knows for sure how some of these technologies will be used in a future which is not fully know, the dangers of abuse are obvious enough that it is reasonable to be suspicious of the motives of those at the top of the food-chain especially when they wrap everything in secrecy and outright lies.  They simply do not want any checks and balances and thus impediments to further development and utilization of these dangerous technologies.  It is perfectly rational to question why.


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tvbcof (OP)
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June 22, 2014, 09:59:19 PM
 #26


I just noticed another article which pivot's off of the OP Guardian one.  Also worth a read for those interested in such things.

  http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24528-us-funds-terror-studies-to-dissect-and-neutralize-social-movements

I also just looked up 'minerva' which I thought I remembered to have been some goddess of wisdom.  From Wikipedia:

Quote
Minerva (Etruscan: Menrva) was the Roman goddess of wisdom and sponsor of arts, trade, and strategy. She was born from the godhead of Jupiter with weapons.

and:

Quote
Minerva, is based on this Etruscan mythology, Minerva was the goddess of wisdom, war, art, schools and commerce.

Both are roughly associated with the Greek goddess Athena who was similar except without the focus on warfare and weapons.  Presumably as the Romans were more focused on outright empire building the association between warfare, economics, and 'wisdom' became more focal.

In the here and now, it seems unlikely that those who are in the drivers seat of the 'Project Minerva' were victims of chance in their choice of project names.

It is also unsurprising in a different way that the enemy which is most heavily focused upon is that which is based within the national population.  This is the most significant threat to the power structures of most large and powerful nations, and has been a key element in the downfall of most of them.

2008 was a pivotal year for the U.S.  I believe that a lot of policy makers and others in positions of power who were fairly comfortable were jarred out of their complacency by the financial near-miss.  Because I've been a long term observer and participant in the global internet and worked in the sector, I sensed the shift most significantly there.  Certain more far thinking elements have dabbled in leveraging the global interternet's capabilities to support (or even to form the medium for) internal and global conflict but it these people were more peripheral before the recognition of the brittleness of our current economic systems was more broadly appreciated.


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scryptasicminer
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June 22, 2014, 10:20:23 PM
 #27

Do they have a timeline on when mass civil breakdown will occur?
tvbcof (OP)
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June 22, 2014, 10:38:34 PM
 #28

Do they have a timeline on when mass civil breakdown will occur?


How on earth would anyone here know that?  We can entertain ourselves by contemplating it however.

No:  It could be fairly spontaneous and triggered by an unpredictable event.

Yes:  It could be triggered deliberately at an opportune time.  It's usually a lot 'smarter' to do a controlled demolition if a collapse is assured.

Maybe/depends:  It could be engineered in some places, or caught early and guided as desirable in some places, and the 'contagion' could be controlled and localized.  In other areas not so much.

In all cases, as someone above said, it actually does make a lot of sense to understand the phenomenon as well as possible, and that would apply whether one's aims and goals are nefarious or not.

In this case I suspect that the study and analysis is so expansive that it would include a variety of important actors who have differing postures and dispositions.  Many of those working in academia, for instance, may have no clue about how the results of their analysis might end up being employed.  Of course a nice big fat grant goes some distance toward being able to ignore that aspect of things and focus on the more interesting hard science and totally fascinating and high quality data being fed into the models which are being constructed.


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