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Author Topic: Bank account opening rejected - seeking advice.  (Read 4408 times)
davout
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January 17, 2013, 11:09:40 AM
 #21

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They got bitchslapped by the judge for running an unlicensed financial business.
Yes, but companies in France are required by law to have a bank account, so the judge also said that bank has to re-open the account.
Unlicensed fin. business is different story.

Also, try banks in Poland. They are usually more bitcoin-friendly.
You might want to get your facts straight.

The judge telling the CIC to keep the account open was only before the court could actually settle the matter by hearing both side's argumentation, which basically went like this :

CIC : We want to close their account because they're operating a business for which European and French regulations make a license mandatory.
MTGOX : We don't need a license for keeping people's funds on deposit.
JUDGE (to mtgox) : are you fucking kidding me ?

The case had *nothing* to do with Bitcoin, it had to do with operating an unlicensed wannabe fiat bank, it would have been the same if mtgox was operating a trading platform for say... magic the gathering playing cards.

And just because they managed to open a bank account in Poland doesn't make them compliant with European regulations, it's only a matter of time before that account gets closed, for the exact same reasons.

Grecoin
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January 18, 2013, 12:53:43 PM
 #22

@davout

You obviously have a great experience with the bitcoin-central success and the whole interaction with the banks,
so can you please share your insights about what people should tell banks when trying to open a business account for a bitcoin related business?

What is the safest thing to tell as a reason for opening the account without falling into technical details or the usual misunderstandings

Any European banks you would suggest maybe?

davout
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January 18, 2013, 01:06:59 PM
 #23

what people should tell banks when trying to open a business account for a bitcoin related business?
It depends on how your business relates to Bitcoin, and more importantly on whether you will store other people's money on their behalf.

What is the safest thing to tell as a reason for opening the account without falling into technical details or the usual misunderstandings
Again, it depends on your particular business. As with anything, telling the truth is usually the safest.

Any European banks you would suggest maybe?
Not really, I'd suggest picking a bank branch that's physically close. It always help to be able to just walk in.

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January 23, 2013, 11:58:53 AM
 #24

The case had *nothing* to do with Bitcoin, it had to do with operating an unlicensed wannabe fiat bank, it would have been the same if mtgox was operating a trading platform for say... magic the gathering playing cards.

I lolled.

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Herodes (OP)
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January 30, 2013, 08:41:08 AM
 #25

Ok, considering the following scenario.

A business wants to open an bank account with a certain bank.
The business and the people running that business have a good credit standing, and no run-ins with the law.

The business the company want to conduct is legal in that particular jurisdiction. In this case it's obviously dealing with bitcoins, but let's say for the sake of argumentation that it could be anything.

The bank rejects the application and says it will not discuss the reasons for the rejection.

How is this different from being rejected from purchasing something in a hardware store, or a computer store.

For example, if I was a muslim, wearing a turban on my head, and I entered a computer hardware store, I walked around the store, and looked at different computers, and finally decided to buy a laptop, then the manager came, and he hates muslims, and he just states: "We can't sell you this laptop, sorry, you're not wanted in our store".

That would not be legal in most countries, would it ? I understand a customer may be rejected from purchasing anything in a store if the customer has an anti-social behaviour, but as long as the customer behaves in a normal way, and just want to buy some merchandise, you can't really reject him one way or another, can you ?

And then back to the bank example. There could be a racist guy working with account applications, and he would regularily reject applications from those with strange sounding names, so Muhammed Al Banjar would be rejected, while Kurt Siegermann would not, that would clearly be illegal, would it not ?

Then let's extend it another step. What if the clerk rejecting the application were a prude, and had a certain dislike for anything related with the adult/porn business, so a business selling legal items, for instance sex-toys (dildos etc.) would be rejected just because the clerk in question was uncomfortable with it, or perhaps even the entire bank was uncomfortable with such customers. Would it be legal to just reject such business ?

Now, it's established that bitcoins is not illegal in the jurisdiction were the bank denied the bank account opening, and the company wanting to open the account has been perfectly candid about it's business, and there's nothing nefarious going on, is this still legal behaviour by the bank ?

In the muslim with the turban example above, we could imagine the man just going into the store, but since this was a racist store, he might already be rejected while entering the store, and when he asked why, he would just receive the response: "You are rejected for undisclosed reasons, Sir. You have to leave." Would that not be basis for a law suit ?

Or instead of the racist rejection, it could just be an overzealous manager trying to avoid anything that could remotely be dangerous, so seeing a muslim with a turban could create fears (ridicolous, I know) that the he would use any merchandice purchased for terrorist purchases. Ie. a laptop could be used to write and transmit plans for acts of terrorism, or a camera could be used to take pictures of a target and so on. This is completely far fetched, and stupid, but I've seen so many silly things happening in real life, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone actually did this.

But my final point is that, as long as the bank can't prove that you're criminal, have no reason to belive so, you have a good credit rating, no outstanding issues with law enforcement and the legal system could they still reject you, and would that be legal ? That doesn't look good with me. Also, when the issue of money laundering is brought up, and the company wanting to open the account clearly explains it's business model, and even offers to provide audits and complete transparency, does the bank still have a basis for rejecting the account opening ?

Not that the company in question intends to do any money laundering, but if they did, would that not be an issue between the company in question and law enforcement ? How could the bank possibly be blamed for this ? At the same time, most banks do business with other major banks, and as we know, most major banks have been involved in serious illegal acts, and many of them have paid hefty fines, yet these banks do not stop working with each other, yet they aim at the small businesses, instead of stopping to do business with the major players that defraud for hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars/euros.

While I understand that a random company does not have the god given right to do business with a certain bank, I wonder if there's any reason that a bank account opening could be rejected when the company in question clearly are not into nefarious business practises and is perfectly willing to cooperate and answer any concerns the bank may have.

Another example, what if I was a bank manager, and I hated guns. I could then instruct everyone at the bank to reject any account applications from businesses that deals with guns, be it soft-guns, air-guns, replicas, whatever. I just hated guns, and wouldn't have anything to do with anyone that was involved in said business. I could claim that guns could be used to kill people, and that my bank didn't want to be involved with such businesses, would that be a legal thing to do ?

This could really be extended to anything, so bank account applications could be rejected completely at random. We can't simply live in a society where this is how you do business. For instance, there are people with various sexual preferences, or other particular interests that are far outside the scope of what I want to deal with, but a company can't just reject business with such people because they have certain interests.

Doesn't most countries have some kind of legislation that governs how financial institutions deals with customers, or is this completely inregulated, so they can act like gorillas and block anyone they don't like from entering the door ?

The problem lies not in the rejection itself, but in an unjust rejection that is not explained fully. I think that's extremely arrogant and unprofessional. Now, if the bank said: "Look, we have some objections to the kind of businesses you're running because [fill in reason], then this could be discussed, and the company trying to open the bank account could either accept this, or try to convince the bank that they should accept our business anyway."

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