Bitcoin Forum
May 26, 2024, 01:37:04 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin mining Contracts  (Read 1881 times)
austriabitcoin (OP)
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 79
Merit: 10


View Profile WWW
June 30, 2014, 02:02:20 PM
 #1

Does anyone know of a good mining Contract Company where you actually profit from buying those contracts??

thanks

TheRealSteve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500

FUN > ROI


View Profile
June 30, 2014, 02:56:52 PM
 #2

I'd be surprised if one existed - though theoretically one could exist, long term it doesn't make sense.

Here's a recent review of one that looked somewhat promising:
http://cryptomining-blog.com/2940-checking-out-bitcoin-cloud-services/

Until you get to this part:
Quote
Doing a quick calculation has shown that if the Bitcoin network difficulty remains the same and the daily payout is also the same as the one we got the first day we are going to need a little over 82 days to get back what we have spent for the mining contract.
(emphasis mine)
Note that that post was made just a day or so before the difficulty jumped by almost 25% - so that '82 days' was horribly optimistic at best Smiley

ajw7989
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924
Merit: 1000


View Profile
July 01, 2014, 01:49:21 AM
 #3

I personally have used pbmining and I started in late January. The initial investment was reached ROI and now it is all profit. Of course I have made profit a lot quicker if you count referrals. If you are interested please use my link in my sig. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me as well.
CLOUDMINING.GURU
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 130
Merit: 100



View Profile WWW
July 01, 2014, 02:32:01 AM
 #4

Have a look at some of our reviews: https://cloudmining.guru

Regards

CryptoNames
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 423
Merit: 250


View Profile WWW
July 01, 2014, 06:45:04 AM
Last edit: July 01, 2014, 03:54:18 PM by CryptoNames
 #5

Does anyone know of a good mining Contract Company where you actually profit from buying those contracts??

thanks

MiningContracts.com - Research, compare, and review among the largest selection of Bitcoin and Scrypt Mining Contracts.

austriabitcoin (OP)
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 79
Merit: 10


View Profile WWW
July 01, 2014, 08:08:01 AM
 #6

if you could give me some more Information other than a link would help a lot

How much are you contracts and how much do I make with it and how much does the company make i buy from.

dont just post a stupid link dude Wink

DrG
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2086
Merit: 1035


View Profile
July 01, 2014, 09:30:07 AM
 #7

Unfortunately any large company will not sell you something that had a realistic chance of making more $ (since then they would be losing out on potential profit) - this is assuming the company knows how to do math.  If they are stupid it's possible for them to sell too cheaply to end users.
tuanvie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250



View Profile
July 01, 2014, 10:23:55 AM
 #8

Does anyone know of a good mining Contract Company where you actually profit from buying those contracts??

thanks

so far I've only tried pbmining and cex.io
but if you are just starting now would be very difficult, because the income would be very small because of the higher diff

.
      ▄▄█▀▀█▄▄
  ▄▄█████▄▄█████▄▄
████  ███  ███  ████
  ▀▀█████▀▀█████▀▀

▀█▄▄  ▀▀█▄▄█▀▀   ▄▄█
 ▀▀███▄▄     ▄▄██▀██
     ▀███   ██▀  ▄█
██     ██  ██ ▄██▀██
▀██    ██  ███▀  ▄██
 ▀███▄▄██  ██ ▄███▀
    ▀▀███  ▀██▀▀
Just.Bet 
 
 
 
█▀▀▀▀▀










█▄▄▄▄▄
.
DICE
LOTTERY
PLINKO
.
COIN FLIP
CRASH
WHEEL
▀▀▀▀▀█










▄▄▄▄▄█
.
        ███████       ▄▄██▄
                  ▄▄███▀▀██▄
      ██████   ▄███████▄▄███▄
               ▀██  █████████▄
                ▀█████████▀▀██▄
████████████     ▀███▀▀███▄▄██▀
██  ████  ██      ▀██▄▄███▀▀
█████▀▀█████  ██   ▀██▀▀
█████▄▄█████
██  ████  ██   ██████
████████████
.
DECENTRALIZED
PROVABLY FAIR
ON CHAIN GAMES
█▀▀▀▀▀










█▄▄▄▄▄
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.
PLAY NOW
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▀▀▀▀▀█










▄▄▄▄▄█
[/center]
joust
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
July 01, 2014, 02:47:32 PM
 #9

Unlike a lot of companies we are quite happy to post actual earnings so people can make up their mind, but we know that due to quite a few unique features we have our contracts over-perform in the marketplace.

Of course no-one can tell you if you are guaranteed to make a profit because you'd need time travel to do that to know what both the difficulty and the BTC price were going to be over the term of your contract, but then that's no different that people buying shares or any other asset that has multiple factors affecting the overall returns.

Here is a real 1THs contract that started two months ago



And here is the same screenshot taken this afternoon



You can hopefully draw your own conclusions.

If anyone wants any more examples of what you would have earned then I'm always happy to provide them.

Further details can be found at http://www.megamine.com

J

TheRealSteve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500

FUN > ROI


View Profile
July 01, 2014, 07:26:08 PM
 #10

You can hopefully draw your own conclusions.

Sure, let's give that a quick stab.
The following should be taken as general commentary, not specific to the aforementioned service.  Your mileage may (or rather, will) vary.



Here's the input data:

Source: The screenshots.  I measured pixels over the height of the Y axis to get to preliminary numbers.  Then for each of the two graphs I took the actually cited revenue to apply a correction to the figures to get to the likely actual numbers.
Note that this is an X/Y plot, as the screenshots' bar graphs use two different scales (1 bar per 8 hours vs 1 bar per 12 hours).

The line graph is the accumulated revenue.  I think it should be clear that it declines.  While the sample set is too small (given variability) to really see it, this actually follows the changes in difficulty.
period
difficulty
04/29/14
8000872136
05/12/14
8853416309
05/24/14
10455720138
06/05/14
11756551917
06/18/14
13462580115
06/29/14
16818461371
Source: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

For those unfamiliar, the generally accepted rule (aside from some shenanigans with pools' payout methods, for example) is that for a fixed hash rate, if the difficulty doubles, your revenue halves.  Let's see if this holds somewhat by taking the relative difficulty change and multiplying the revenue from the previous period by the inverse of that number to get an estimated revenue.
                    period
actual revenue
1/relative difficulty change
estimated revenue
05/12/14-05/24/14
0.701
n/a
n/a
05/24/14-06/05/14
0.570
0.847
0.593
06/05/14-06/18/14
0.504
0.889
0.507
06/18/14-06/29/14
0.419
0.873
0.44
Well, that looks about right.  The estimates are a bit optimistic but, given variability and all that jazz, are reasonable.

That means that we can do projections.  Now the historic difficulty shows us that the difficulty rarely went below 10%, so let's include at least that one.  Let's also include the ubiquitously cited 20%.
Note that difficulty changes should ideally happen every 14 days.  However, if the network is actually 10% 'fast', then difficulty changes happen every 14/1.1 ~= 12.73 days.  Similarly, 20% results in ~ 11.67 days.  Which is why the dots on the two extrapolations don't line up vertically.

This is what the two difficulty graphs would look like through to 2015/01/01:


Now, you can probably guess what happens to the revenue in that time period.  Note that the 'historic revenue' ends at the last difficulty change.


At 20% difficulty increases, the sum revenue already starts to flatten out.  At 10% difficulty increases, it's not so bad.  Let's extend the time period through to, oh I don't know, 2020-01-01.

Note that there's an almost imperceptible discontinuity in the chart - this is because some time in 2016, the reward will halve.  The block height at the last difficulty change was block 308,448.
Source: https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000828e7f7f643a00d1449041dfff89775139ab8e5ed2d7d58
Each difficulty adjustment period is 2,016 blocks, and the next reward change happens at block 420,000, so we can easily adjust revenue accordingly.
Source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply#Projected_Bitcoins_Short_Term
However, revenue per period at that point is already so low, that you can barely see it, even in the 10% graph.


Well, by that time they have both well and truly hit their ceiling.  Just to note, the numbers are:
For a 10% difficulty increase, total revenue: BTC6.834
For a 20% difficulty increase, total revenue: BTC4.759



That doesn't sound so bad, right?  But then we get to that other number in the screenshot:
Purchase Price: $4,154.
The start date was 2014-04-04.
The USD/BTC at that time was ~$435
Source: https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price
So for $4,154 , one could have purchased $4,154/$435 = BTC9.549.

If the difficulty only increased by ~5.83% (or less), then this particular example would exceed that figure by the time it ceilings out (If setting a cut-off of revenue-per-period of BTC0.001: mid-August 2016)

Your mileage will vary.  If you purchase BTC when it's relatively high, cloud hashing may be more attractive.  While if you buy low, you'd be much better off just purchasing directly.  But then cloud hashing companies are likely to adjust their prices, too.

And if you're thinking "well, I don't care about ROI in BTC - The BTC has been spent, it's gone, now I just want to know if I can still get ahead in fiat."
With the 10% increase, USD/BTC would have to be ~$608 at the ceiling to have break-even.
With the 20% increase, USD/BTC would have to be ~$873 at the ceiling to have break-even.
USD/BTC has been greater than those before, so there is that.

But just to rub it in anyway, assume those USD/BTC rates if you had purchased the BTC instead:
BTC9.549 * $608/BTC = $5,805 ($1,650 profit)
BTC9.549 * $873/BTC = $8,335 ($4,181 profit)



Disclaimer: This is just a quick stab at things - if there's a grave error, please do point it out (try not to quote the entire post, though - it's lengthy enough as is).

joust
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
July 01, 2014, 08:59:36 PM
 #11

Nice analysis that I can't pick any factual holes in, good to have such an educated piece.

The key is of course this statement:

Now the historic difficulty shows us that the difficulty rarely went below 10%, so let's include at least that one.  Let's also include the ubiquitously cited 20%.

Now, if you take the bitcoinwisdom figures (which is a great site) and plot all the difficulty changes they have, you get this



The difficulty (sorry, no pun intended) is what you mean by historic, especially if you are looking at a 12 month, but more so a 24 or 36 month contract.

I've given three possible views, there can be many more



The red line seemed to be what was happening in the 'early phase' of bitcoin.
The green is essentially the last year and a half averaged.
The orange is the last year.

So which do you use to predict the next 10 months. The average. The last year. Since time began. A weighted version against bitcoin price? Something else?

The uptick right at the end that argues against the orange line is, of course, last weekends 25%+ change, but there is pretty good speculation about what caused that, and it's certainly not carrying on because estimated difficulty has been steadily falling since the last change, and is now down to 15%. The latest graph from bitcoinwisdom shows that clearly.



So, is the 'arms race' over, or is this the lull before the storm? That is the question, or the fun of predicting the two way problem about BTC price and hash rate progression.

The main issue is of course small impacts on what you 'flatline' difficulty in your calculations have large impacts on early life contracts such as the one I demonstrated, and I would argue that your analysis where you 'flatline' a difficulty change every 2 weeks is half the issue in your predictive answers as clearly difficulty is not going to flatline.

Finally, as you note, just like buying shares when you are 20, ignoring them, and seeing what they are worth at 50 probably isn't the best investment strategy, we wouldn't really recommend anyone not doing a more balanced view of how to invest in mining buy regularly buying contracts to smooth out ups and downs.

One final minor thing, we have a mid price of 455 not 435 for 4th May, but that only changes your 'buy bitcoins' analysis by 5%.

TheRealSteve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500

FUN > ROI


View Profile
July 01, 2014, 10:50:28 PM
 #12

True, the difficulty is unlikely to flatline.  The question - or, as I think you rightly indicate, gamble - is how it's going to fluctuate.

Will it be 25% again and again?  Unlikely.

Of course, if the prediction is more along your orange line and an assumption that it would continue, then over time a number of very strange things would start happening - including reduction of difficulty (which has happened a few times) to the point that the 1Thash/s for the contract would have to be the sole contributor to the hash rate and payouts would be capped at exactly the block reward (minus whatever fees may apply)... though at that point, Bitcoin is pretty much dead Wink

The truth, of course, is going to be somewhere in between the extremes, and I'm certainly not suggesting my post as advice either - people need to decide for themselves Smiley  But I will guess that there's good historic reason (almost regardless of which time period is chosen) to think that the difficulty will continue to increase and the relative change will at least remain above 10% for the foreseeable future (the recent bump isn't the only expected one, but I'm leaving that aside).  Even if it drops lower after a while, it would put break-even well, well into the future.

Looping around to OP's question, there are basically none that guarantee a profit.  They could exist - as a short term offer in order to get an injection of funds to invest in hardware, hosting, etc. - but after recouping those costs it makes no sense to continue a 'guaranteed' offer.

There are, however, plenty that will be honest (and I'm glad to see you're among them) that basically say "There are no guarantees in mining, it's all an informed gamble, we're just here to help make that gamble a smooth experience for you and take the hassle of buying/setting up/running/maintaining/hosting/cooling/etc. hardware off your hands."

That said, perhaps we can revisit this specific mining contract by the end of the year, and give things an update.



In the mean time, (possible) errata:
There was in fact an error in my revenue graphs, though the error is not visible at all and does not even affect the rounded-to-3-decimals numbers.

As far as the price for May 4th goes - that probably depends on which exchange is being checked against.  bitstamp suggests $433, bitfinex at $439, btc-e at $429 and a weighted average at $432.  Not sure where you got the $455, but yes.. it's a fairly minor impact Smiley

joust
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
July 02, 2014, 06:49:25 AM
 #13

Steve,

Again, all good words and factual. As you say anyone offering a "guaranteed" return would be brave, stupid and likely to be just running a Ponzi scheme. If you check out the history of the people that founded Megamine you'll see we all come from telecoms/Internet backgrounds and so have a history of offering people choices about what they buy from us and the returns that you may get.

If you want to mine for bitcoins, rather than buy them, it feels a bit like the early days of having email and websites where you had three choices - try and do it yourself, get someone else to do it, or buy a service from the early companies like Easynet that we come from. 'Rationally' people may have told you that doing any of them was a waste of time as it was just a fad and 'you'll never make any money from the Internet', but now 20 years later that feels stupid, but you'll be amazed at the number of clever people that said "oh, that website stuff, it's all over now, only the big guys can make money" in 2000-2005 and here we are with new Internet successes being created every day by the small guys still.

No-one can really predict the future (and if they say they can, just ask them who's going to win the World Cup, the F1 championship and the 5:15 at Kempton) but we are here to provide a service for people that have weighed up the options and want to mine, but don't or can't do it themselves. Hopefully we do that in a transparent, open and straightforward way.

Finally on the price I went on our our mid price which we use to set our CashNow value (details at www.megamine.com), which can sometimes be slightly higher than others as it depends on our view of how many bitcoins as a business we need.

Useful and good discussion. Thanks again for your contribution as only through forums like this can people hopefully get the facts they need to make an informed choice about what they do.

I'd be delighted to come back in 10 months and see how this has done - perhaps I'll post once a quarter to this thread and we can have some good thoughts about where things may be going?

J

sumpahpocong
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
July 03, 2014, 04:36:39 PM
 #14

I'd be surprised if one existed - though theoretically one could exist, long term it doesn't make sense.

Here's a recent review of one that looked somewhat promising:
http://cryptomining-blog.com/2940-checking-out-bitcoin-cloud-services/

Until you get to this part:
Quote
Doing a quick calculation has shown that if the Bitcoin network difficulty remains the same and the daily payout is also the same as the one we got the first day we are going to need a little over 82 days to get back what we have spent for the mining contract.
(emphasis mine)
Note that that post was made just a day or so before the difficulty jumped by almost 25% - so that '82 days' was horribly optimistic at best Smiley

you've tried?
I am also interested in https://www.bitcoincloudservices.com/
TheRealSteve
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500

FUN > ROI


View Profile
July 03, 2014, 07:22:51 PM
 #15

you've tried?
I am also interested in https://www.bitcoincloudservices.com/

Nope - that blog checks out some cloud mining services, so you could keep an eye on them.  Do note that the time you get into it can affect returns (if any).  Which means that any review of a cloud mining service over period t0-t1 doesn't necessarily mean it'll perform similarly over period t1-t2 or t2-t3. aka "past performance is not a guarantee of future results"

ONLYfree
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000


View Profile
July 03, 2014, 09:29:18 PM
 #16

Now is new bitcoin mining service who give free 10 ghs mining power to see how it works. You can check it in my signature.

Thank you

-2: -1 / +0
Warning: Trade with extreme caution!
joust
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
August 26, 2014, 09:43:02 AM
 #17

It's been some time since this thread has had some comments, but I thought people might be interested to see how that 1TH/s contract has been doing lately.

Here is the latest screenshot



Earnings have gone from 2.737345BTC to 4.188266BTC.

Unfortunately the BTC:$ price has changed a lot negatively since the last screenshot so $ earnings are suppressed between comparing the two of them (how we wish we could affect that!) but it shows the continued strong BTC earnings of the contract (we are within 0.7 of Steve's 20% difficulty increase maximum earnings, just 3 months in)

Comments as always welcome.

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!