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Author Topic: Pegged vs. Destructive Side Chains  (Read 1930 times)
cbeast (OP)
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November 03, 2014, 04:26:41 AM
 #1

Preface:

I presume most people understand what pegging means with regards to currencies. I use the term Destructive in lieu of Proof of Burn because it doesn't matter if the bitcoins are actually permanently burned or just spent. That is a legal and incentive issue and not a technical issue. I would personally prefer the burning method and will include those properties as well. Destructive Chains are not to be confused with Colored Coin type derivatives (i.e. Mastercoin, Counterparty, etc.) that use bitcoins for transactions.

Premise: A Destructive Chain requires the Bitcoin Blockchain only to verify their origin. A Pegged Chain is reversible.

Pegged vs Destructive Side Chain as Bitcoin Derivative Assets.

Pegged Chains

Pegged Chain Pros:

    1. Organic adoption based on its success.
    2. Has a (more or less) fixed 1:1 exchange with bitcoins less fees.
    3. If the asset fails to be adopted, I can get some or all my bitcoins back.
    4. If Bitcoin security is compromised, the entire Bitcoin Derivative Asset is not irrecoverably lost because the pegged bitcoins can be moved.
    5. Resistant to pump and dump because it can instantly inflate and deflate through 1:1 arbitrage.
    6. More functionality adds to the Bitcoin overall ecosystem because it's non-parasitic.
    7. Is better money than Bitcoin (though poorer currency because of clones).

Pegged Chain Cons:

    1. Less fees for Bitcoin miners unless merge mined.
    2. Sucks development and interest from Bitcoin to replace Bitcoin with a superior (or inferior) cryptocurrency.*
    3. Bitcoin becomes a reserve currency.
    4. Trades some security risk for greater functionality.
    5. Security costs are high with maintaining the Bitcoin peg bridge.

Destructive Chain

Destructive Chain Pros:

    1. Less bitcoins circulating means my bitcoins are worth more because the burn is a one time event that can be accounted for.
    2. More incentive for development because pre-mined assets can be sold.
    3. Adds functionality to the overall Bitcoin ecosystem.
    4. As a parasite, it requires the Bitcoin host to remain healthy or it will die. Bitcoin will be a safer store of value.
    5. Can be a better currency than Bitcoin (though a poor money because it lacks the liquidity of pegging).

Destructive Chain Cons:

    1. Failure of the asset is total loss.
    2. Drain on Bitcoin Core development.
    3. Easy to pump and dump because it's deflationary.
    4. Scam coins are possible.


Conclusion:

There are advantages and disadvantages to both Destructive and Pegged Chains. Both add to the Bitcoin Ecosystem. Pegged Chains can add floating destructive assets from transaction fees. Destructive Chains have greater potential for functionality improvements without threatening Bitcoin. Altcoin developers can choose which type of Bitcoin Derivative Asset would best serve their needs. They can also choose hybrid or layered. Developers can choose hybrid designs with advantages and disadvantage tradeoffs that fit their needs. They can also or instead add layers of pegged assets, though the security costs of pegging grow.



* May be pro or con depending on point of view.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 03, 2014, 06:35:29 AM
 #2

...
Pegged Chain Cons:

    1. Less fees for Bitcoin miners unless merge mined.
I'm not so sure of this.  Less fees perhaps by count, but they could be much higher.  This is particularly true if group aggregation happens whereby a real Bitcoin transaction represents underlying activities of multiple parties on the sidechain because, of course, each party can pay a very tiny fraction but it could add up to a lot.  Even if I do need to take a hit for a personal transfer of backing to or from a sidechain, it's something I would do irregularly so I'm even less bothered by paying a relatively healthy fee.

    3. Bitcoin becomes a reserve currency.
I personally seen nothing whatsoever wrong with this.  Among other things, it maps to the native latency of the Bitcoin solution thus provoking less incentive to try to change this aspect of it.  Changing this is tricky because it is relatively fundamental.  I believe that this 'batch mode' aspect of Bitcoin's function could have very great utility if the solution ever comes under dedicated state sponsored attack.


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cbeast (OP)
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November 03, 2014, 12:41:25 PM
 #3

...
Pegged Chain Cons:

    1. Less fees for Bitcoin miners unless merge mined.
I'm not so sure of this.  Less fees perhaps by count, but they could be much higher.  This is particularly true if group aggregation happens whereby a real Bitcoin transaction represents underlying activities of multiple parties on the sidechain because, of course, each party can pay a very tiny fraction but it could add up to a lot.  Even if I do need to take a hit for a personal transfer of backing to or from a sidechain, it's something I would do irregularly so I'm even less bothered by paying a relatively healthy fee.

I could see that if they use the sendmany command or some multisig scheme. Perhaps raising the 1 meg blocksize cap will encourage acceptance of more outputs and larger fees.

    3. Bitcoin becomes a reserve currency.
I personally seen nothing whatsoever wrong with this.  Among other things, it maps to the native latency of the Bitcoin solution thus provoking less incentive to try to change this aspect of it.  Changing this is tricky because it is relatively fundamental.  I believe that this 'batch mode' aspect of Bitcoin's function could have very great utility if the solution ever comes under dedicated state sponsored attack.

I suppose I should have asterisked more. I would actually prefer if Bitcoin became a reserve currency in most jurisdictions. It would be a better store of value and be more portable than a local derivative asset.

I've been thinking about this awhile. It's the whole dynamic functioning of a peg versus a one shot static relationship with Bitcoin that has me so intrigued. I hope the altcoin folks are flexible enough to adapt their coins to take advantage of Bitcoin's additional security. I'm sure if there were any premined altcoins that used proof of burn, they realize they were a little ahead of the game as long as they can sell them. Perhaps even Proof of Stake is adequate security for a destructive chain.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 06, 2014, 02:02:04 AM
 #4

do destructive side-chain still works if at some point in the future the bitcoin address schmeme needs to be updated due to security flaws?

it would be bad if the whole world thinks that there are only 2m btc left but in reality an attacker "mining btc addresses" could restore them back to the main chain years in the future...

i dont know exactly how sidechains are supposed to work tough, maybe thats an non-issue

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cbeast (OP)
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November 06, 2014, 03:40:30 AM
 #5

do destructive side-chain still works if at some point in the future the bitcoin address schmeme needs to be updated due to security flaws?

it would be bad if the whole world thinks that there are only 2m btc left but in reality an attacker "mining btc addresses" could restore them back to the main chain years in the future...

i dont know exactly how sidechains are supposed to work tough, maybe thats an non-issue
Bitcoin will have legacy support for old addresses due to people using cold storage. Destructive chains are not pegged with bitcoins but are bootstrapped with bitcoins at their genesis. I'm not a fan of the Destructive chain concept, but I believe they are inevitable because parasites serve the purpose of keeping a system strong and that greed will always motivate some people to be parasites.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
onemorebtc
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November 06, 2014, 04:15:51 AM
 #6

do destructive side-chain still works if at some point in the future the bitcoin address schmeme needs to be updated due to security flaws?

it would be bad if the whole world thinks that there are only 2m btc left but in reality an attacker "mining btc addresses" could restore them back to the main chain years in the future...

i dont know exactly how sidechains are supposed to work tough, maybe thats an non-issue
Bitcoin will have legacy support for old addresses due to people using cold storage. Destructive chains are not pegged with bitcoins but are bootstrapped with bitcoins at their genesis. I'm not a fan of the Destructive chain concept, but I believe they are inevitable because parasites serve the purpose of keeping a system strong and that greed will always motivate some people to be parasites.

Legacy Addresses:
Yes Bitcoin will likely support "old" addresses if a weakness is found. but that still means that coins send to old addresses could be recovered by someone in the future. my question is if the sidechain feature (the new opcode to be specific) would have a problem with that.

Destructive sidechains not pegged:
i dont really understand this point. if the sidechain is not pegged (eg i cant move btc to sidecoins and back) why do it in the first place? wouldnt it make more sense to just develop a new coin and let its genesis distribute some premined coins?

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cbeast (OP)
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November 06, 2014, 05:24:57 AM
 #7

do destructive side-chain still works if at some point in the future the bitcoin address schmeme needs to be updated due to security flaws?

it would be bad if the whole world thinks that there are only 2m btc left but in reality an attacker "mining btc addresses" could restore them back to the main chain years in the future...

i dont know exactly how sidechains are supposed to work tough, maybe thats an non-issue
Bitcoin will have legacy support for old addresses due to people using cold storage. Destructive chains are not pegged with bitcoins but are bootstrapped with bitcoins at their genesis. I'm not a fan of the Destructive chain concept, but I believe they are inevitable because parasites serve the purpose of keeping a system strong and that greed will always motivate some people to be parasites.

Legacy Addresses:
Yes Bitcoin will likely support "old" addresses if a weakness is found. but that still means that coins send to old addresses could be recovered by someone in the future. my question is if the sidechain feature (the new opcode to be specific) would have a problem with that.

Destructive sidechains not pegged:
i dont really understand this point. if the sidechain is not pegged (eg i cant move btc to sidecoins and back) why do it in the first place? wouldnt it make more sense to just develop a new coin and let its genesis distribute some premined coins?
Destructive chains are very esoteric. They are the bastard children of altcoins and Bitcoin. There is a trend happening called Proof of Burn that made no sense to me until I realised their resemblance to parasites. In every other sense they are new or premined shitcoins. The advantage over other altcoins is the instant karma from it's initial value. Only the most innovative and secure assets will dare ask people to burn their bitcoin or spend them with potential scammers. A really innovative asset will destroy a lot of bitcoins and make my bitcoins worth more. Just like pegged chains, if they are successful, then perhaps some of their attributes they can be imitated by Bitcoin. If only other altcoins copy them, then they are not as good as Bitcoin.


Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
onemorebtc
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November 06, 2014, 05:27:13 AM
 #8


Destructive chains are very esoteric. They are the bastard children of altcoins and Bitcoin. There is a trend happening called Proof of Burn that made no sense to me until I realised their resemblance to parasites. In every other sense they are new or premined shitcoins. The advantage over other altcoins is the instant karma from it's initial value. Only the most innovative and secure assets will dare ask people to burn their bitcoin or spend them with potential scammers. A really innovative asset will destroy a lot of bitcoins and make my bitcoins worth more. Just like pegged chains, if they are successful, then perhaps some of their attributes they can be imitated by Bitcoin. If only other altcoins copy them, then they are not as good as Bitcoin.


so my question should be: is proof of burn really a proof? or does it just mean that the outputs are not accessable until a weakness is found...

anyhow: thanks for clarification

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cbeast (OP)
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November 06, 2014, 05:44:38 AM
 #9


Destructive chains are very esoteric. They are the bastard children of altcoins and Bitcoin. There is a trend happening called Proof of Burn that made no sense to me until I realised their resemblance to parasites. In every other sense they are new or premined shitcoins. The advantage over other altcoins is the instant karma from it's initial value. Only the most innovative and secure assets will dare ask people to burn their bitcoin or spend them with potential scammers. A really innovative asset will destroy a lot of bitcoins and make my bitcoins worth more. Just like pegged chains, if they are successful, then perhaps some of their attributes they can be imitated by Bitcoin. If only other altcoins copy them, then they are not as good as Bitcoin.


so my question should be: is proof of burn really a proof? or does it just mean that the outputs are not accessable until a weakness is found...

anyhow: thanks for clarification
That's a good point. That would preclude just spending the investment like an IPO. Proof of Burn is essentially like being tasked to find a block with a difficulty many many orders of magnitude higher than will ever be possible.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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November 06, 2014, 02:27:15 PM
 #10

so my question should be: is proof of burn really a proof? or does it just mean that the outputs are not accessable until a weakness is found...

You can spend coin to a provably unspendable address.

If the public key script has an OP_RETURN in it, then it can never be spent.

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