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Author Topic: Torservers - Free Anonymous Uncensored Internet for Everyone  (Read 25284 times)
caveden
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February 06, 2011, 02:36:54 PM
 #21

You really don't want to turn the Tor network into a capitalist system,

Why not?

especially when those affected by censorship are usually the people without money.

Those who are willing to freely donate their bandwidth wouldn't need to stop doing so.
Allowing people to exchange bandwidth for money would just create a faster, payable version of the Tor network.

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kldunc
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February 06, 2011, 04:21:26 PM
 #22

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There, you have some problems:

    * The anonymity would be somehow compromised since the relay would be able to link different connections of yours. He still shouldn't be able to decrypt it if he's not the exit-node, nor know your IP, but anyway, sounds a bit more vulnerable than the current protocol...
    * There's a trust issue too. If it's a prepaid contract, the user has to trust the relay. If it's post-payed, it's the relay that must trust the user. Maybe the best would be a prepaid service with some sort of flagging mechanism to ban fraudulent relays. But then, all the thief-relay needs to do is request a new IP to his ISP...

There is also the problem that each relay will want to be paid. This would add up rather quickly and become burdensome to those who can't afford it. Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean you shouldn't have freedom.

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grondilu
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February 06, 2011, 05:12:51 PM
 #23


I do think that a capitalistic TOR network would be quite a good business model.

BAsically all nodes could receive bitcoins depending on the bandwith they provide.  If they provided less than some amount, then they have to pay in order to use the network.

I don't know well enough how TOR wroks, but to me the very fact that there is a single point for donations is a problem for something which is supposed to be deregulated.


caveden
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February 06, 2011, 05:27:12 PM
 #24

There is no single point of donation, but still, monetary rewards would really create stronger incentives for people to make their bandwidth available. And I think it's feasible with bitcoins.

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grondilu
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February 06, 2011, 05:33:42 PM
 #25

There is no single point of donation, but still, monetary rewards would really create stronger incentives for people to make their bandwidth available. And I think it's feasible with bitcoins.

On second thought, I'm not sure it's that a good idea.

First, it would be tricky to implement.  I don't say it's not possible, but I guess it would be an entire project.

Second, bandwith is actually some kind of "money" which is exchanged on the TOR network.  Basically the incentive to give their bandwith would be some bandwith.  I mean that you give some bandwith and you get some bandwith on the TOR network.  Well, sort of.  But again I don't know well enough how TOR works, so I can't discuss seriously about it.

Anyway I don't like the idea of paying to use TOR.  We already pay internet providers.  It's kind of a double bill.
theymos
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February 06, 2011, 05:37:00 PM
 #26

JAP supports paying for Tor-like service (not yet with bitcoins, though):
http://anonymous-proxy-servers.net/

It uses onion routing like Tor, but you have to pay to use certain relays. All relays are contractually obligated not to attack your anonymity, so you also have more protection against certain "evil node" attacks.

Even the free "mixes" are often much faster than Tor.

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caveden
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February 06, 2011, 05:50:35 PM
 #27

First, it would be tricky to implement.  I don't say it's not possible, but I guess it would be an entire project.

Yeah, probably.

Second, bandwith is actually some kind of "money" which is exchanged on the TOR network.  Basically the incentive to give their bandwith would be some bandwith. 

Sure, but that's already a sort of credit system. You'd have the same tricky aspects to implement it. Why not use a general purpose money instead of a exclusive thing?
Like, those that just want to consume bandwidth instead of giving it could pay with something else, and those willing to provide more bandwidth than consuming would be able to exchange this excess for something else too. It's better this way.

Anyway I don't like the idea of paying to use TOR.  We already pay internet providers.  It's kind of a double bill.

hehe, I don't like the idea of paying for anything, I always prefer "free stuff", but you know, there's no such thing as free lunch. Wink

But think, you would pay and be payed at the same time. The balance it's a matter of how much bandwidth you contribute and how much you consume.

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grondilu
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February 06, 2011, 07:03:03 PM
 #28

hehe, I don't like the idea of paying for anything, I always prefer "free stuff", but you know, there's no such thing as free lunch. Wink

Hum, I don't think it's that simple.  I'd be very unhappy if I had to pay for email, for instance.

The thing is that I think anonimity should be part of Internet provider service.  They are legally forced to montitor and log all IPs they assign.  So with TOR you would pay to counter the law.  I hate this idea.   If I must pay for something that would be free without a stupid law, then I'll go broke very quickly.   Writing a stupid law doesn't cost much.  And if it does cost, you'l finance it by stealing people anyway.  I can't fight against that with money.  Fighting against laws should be free.


kldunc
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February 07, 2011, 03:39:58 AM
 #29

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That's why I'd have no problem paying for TOR to fight the stupid law to counteract my forced funding of the stupid law.

There are other pay versions of Tor available.

www.upallnighthosting.com
lumos
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February 07, 2011, 01:15:58 PM
 #30




The thing is that I think anonimity should be part of Internet provider service.  They are legally forced to montitor and log all IPs they assign.  So with TOR you would pay to counter the law.  I hate this idea.   If I must pay for something that would be free without a stupid law, then I'll go broke very quickly.   Writing a stupid law doesn't cost much.  And if it does cost, you'l finance it by stealing people anyway.  I can't fight against that with money.  Fighting against laws should be free.



+1
many people simply don't view an uncensored net as a fundamental freedom and will let it slip away if it is not made easily available to them. people won't be exposed to content, mass movements will not spontaneously occur as often
torservers
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February 10, 2011, 08:42:30 AM
 #31

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That's why I'd have no problem paying for TOR to fight the stupid law to counteract my forced funding of the stupid law.

There are other pay versions of Tor available.

There is NO "pay version of Tor". You can use JAP and pay for higher bandwidth, yes, but it has a different design and thus different anonymity properties.

I especially like that Tor is free for everyone. If you want a faster net, donate towards us or share your own bandwidth. You can also donate to Torproject for development. The roadmap includes discussion of "incentives": https://blog.torproject.org/blog/two-incentive-designs-tor
torservers
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February 10, 2011, 10:27:02 AM
 #32

In case anyone is interested, the German magazine Carta has published an interview with me.
ptd
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February 10, 2011, 11:44:50 AM
 #33

It says on your donation page that if we donate enough, we get to have a relay named after us. Can we have one named "bitcoin" or something?
torservers
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February 10, 2011, 08:56:58 PM
 #34

Sure Smiley But how do you want to ensure a 'constant stream' of Bitcoin donations?
torservers
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February 13, 2011, 03:42:09 PM
 #35

Thank you for your donation! KalyHost looks fine for a small exit, but I am a bit suspicious when it comes to cheap VPS with "unlimited" traffic on a "fair use" basis. I have contacted them to find out more.

What we are trying to do is buy bandwidth in bulk for very cheap prices. Please follow the discussion the mailing list: http://www.freelists.org/archive/torservers/02-2011 . I really want to spend all donations for the best deal I can get, because in the end that is what I promise to do.

If you want to chat about this and hear about the obstacles when it comes to finding good partners for high bandwidth exits, join us on IRC oftc.net #torservers Smiley
maxvendor
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February 13, 2011, 11:11:41 PM
 #36

Sure Smiley But how do you want to ensure a 'constant stream' of Bitcoin donations?

I have an idea how to get an endless supply of donations. Sent it to your privacybox
torservers
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March 13, 2011, 11:49:24 AM
 #37

It's been a while since the last update. Sorry, but I like being busy on
actually doing stuff instead of writing reports. ;-) It would be nice to
have someone go through our mailing list archive and Twitter feed, pick
all important events and put them into a timeline on our Wiki (and post
it once a month to our mailinglist and this forum?).

This is a request for comments/action (and mostly copied from our
Twitter feed). If you want to help, pick something from our TODO, talk
to us on IRC, do something you feel is appropriate. Smiley

https://www.torservers.net/wiki/todo

- Meet local Tor fans. Organize workshops etc.
 https://www.torservers.net/wiki/usergroups

- Who/What should we dedicate exits to? Suggest names:
 https://www.torservers.net/wiki/exitnames

ISPs for Bridge Hosting: Still looking for ISPs. Some now listed on
 https://www.torservers.net/wiki/hoster/bridges#isps

Free Expression Awards 2011: Tor Project nominated by Index on
Censorship: http://bit.ly/hyAcVb

We run a (working) Torproject mirror now:
 https://www.torservers.net/mirrors/torproject.org/

Phantom released http://code.google.com/p/phantom/
http://www.magnusbrading.com/phantom/

Help us get slashdotted, vote (req required):
 http://news.slashdot.org/submission/1492872/
Vote on Boingboing (reg not required):
 
http://boingboing.net/submit/2011/03/onions-against-dicators---torserversnet-receives-10000-grant-from-access-now.html

New 1 Gbit/s Romanian exit thanks to funding from Access now! -
dedicated to victims of Mau Mau Uprising in #Kenya, David Kato from
#Uganda and Evo Morales from #Bolivia http://bit.ly/hPkEk4
http://maumau.torservers.net/vnstat.png
http://maumau.torservers.net/vnstat_d.png

Onions Against Dictators - Torservers.net receives $10,000 grant from
Access Now https://www.torservers.net/wiki/press
( Mit Zwiebeln gegen Diktatoren - Torservers erhält 10.000 Dollar
Förderung https://www.torservers.net/wiki/presse )

Meet me at #rp11 13-15.4. #Berlin http://re-publica.de/11/
Meet me at #tazlab 8-9.4. #Berlin http://bit.ly/ihOWo

Torproject's website lists a LOT of ideas for potential projects
http://bit.ly/eECpVY

#Excito's B3 router will include Tor by default http://bit.ly/hesemc
Thanks Håke

FDC Server online.
http://katari.torservers.net/vnstat.png
http://katari.torservers.net/vnstat_d.png

Help us hit the Top 10 on Flattr: https://flattr.com/thing/5649
(currently: #16)

Flattr revenue Feb: 93.44€

Guardian Project looking for beta testers for Android XMPP client with
true OTR+Tor support http://bit.ly/eVbIZK

Working on Zabbix for monitoring and graphs:
 https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/zabbix

Secure Mailserver: Remove IP from Outgoing Mails in Postfix
 https://www.torservers.net/wiki/setup/mailserver
carp
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March 13, 2011, 03:23:28 PM
 #38

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That's why I'd have no problem paying for TOR to fight the stupid law to counteract my forced funding of the stupid law.

There are other pay versions of Tor available.

There is NO "pay version of Tor". You can use JAP and pay for higher bandwidth, yes, but it has a different design and thus different anonymity properties.

I especially like that Tor is free for everyone. If you want a faster net, donate towards us or share your own bandwidth. You can also donate to Torproject for development. The roadmap includes discussion of "incentives": https://blog.torproject.org/blog/two-incentive-designs-tor

I am with you on the sentiment but, I have heard statements about botnets running OR nodes to create a dark Onion cloud. I wouldn't be surprised if someone is selling access to the directory servers of such a cloud, and that would, effectively be a "pay version of tor".

Man, can you imagine... 10's of thousands of nodes.... hmmm and all of them exits too....

torservers
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April 17, 2011, 06:17:51 PM
 #39

We are now the fastest operator of Tor exit nodes worldwide, thanks to your donations! Smiley
torservers
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May 22, 2011, 12:15:27 PM
 #40

All our Tor exit nodes allow port 8333. You can find the servers at http://torstatus.blutmagie.de/index.php?SR=Bandwidth&SO=Desc (look for addresses ending in .torservers.net).

We have a total of 1200.13 BTC at the moment. Thanks!!

Bitcoin address at https://www.torservers.net/donate.html#anonymous
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