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Author Topic: Why BTC hasn't and wont hit the mainstream:  (Read 7063 times)
billyjoeallen
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May 28, 2011, 05:30:09 AM
 #21

Why-o-why do i have the feeling that OP is just another troll...
The amount of trolls/anti-bitcoin-fanatics seems to be growing equally exponential aswell...
Just google for bitcoin scam and bitcoin ponzi and things like that, you get a LOT of websites telling how stupid and bad, complicated and illegal bitcoin is...
Not sure what we can do to clear things up for those people...

Haterz gonna h8.  just meanz we get to buy our BTC on the cheap.

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kloinko1n
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May 28, 2011, 03:02:42 PM
 #22

The problem with bitcoin is that it competes with both banks as well as government.
Banks don't like it when the money creation and issuing is out of their hands, and governments don't like it when the circulation is beyond their control.
The Wörgl experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worgl ) and the, I think it's named Liberty Dollar (?), have shown that government will go full force (and that includes both army and FBI) after the 'criminals' who dare to operate an independent currency within a country.
No doubt bitcoin will share the same fate once it gets big enough, unfortunately.
And don't shout: "Internet is out of control of the goverment!" because it's not.
Obama has a 'kill switch' and other governments undoubtedly will implement such legislation first before cracking down on bitcoin.
Apart from the 'kill switch' there are deep packet inspection and end-user prosecution to bring dealing with bitcoins under government control.
ISPs become bigger and bigger, and will act more and more like government puppets in order to (and in that order):
1. not damage the carreer perspectives of their CEOs,
2. not damage the coporate profitability figures.
This way it will become quite easy and unavoidable that all internet connections will be regulated in a sense that they will be dissallowed unless allowed, contrary to the current situation in which they are practically all allowed, with here and there some exceptions like domain hijacking by the Dept. of Homeland Security (in cases of copyricht violations, for God's sake!).
Internet II is just around the corner, in which all traffic will go through some big providers, with internet IDs identifying the participants, and will be snooped upon by government, in order to protect the Homeland against 'terrorism', catastrophies 'and any other action deemed inappropriate' by The President.
So I'd say have fun with your bitcoins, but step out before government steps in.
elewton
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May 28, 2011, 03:08:01 PM
 #23

I certainly expect totalitarian states to make life difficult for their Bitcoin users.

Whether that's China, the U.S., or Saudi Arabia, it just gives third world countries times to catch up and become Bit-rich.
billyjoeallen
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May 28, 2011, 03:53:54 PM
 #24

It's impossible to disinvent (uninvent?) technology. Bitcoin is a technology like nuclear fission. You could shut down the Manhattan Project, but it would still be developed somewhere else. Look how futile the Non-proliferation efforts have been. Even if bitcoin fails, the peer-to-peer cryptocurrency technology will not and cannot go away. It will survive and grow because nothing else has the same properties, properties with utility.

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kloinko1n
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May 28, 2011, 04:14:14 PM
 #25

...
Even if bitcoin fails, the peer-to-peer cryptocurrency technology will not and cannot go away. It will survive and grow because nothing else has the same properties, properties with utility.
Even if the infrastructure will get limited to 'registered-only' services?
I hope you're right.
I very much support the ideals where bitcoin stands for, especially to take control out of the hand of the banks.
But man are they powerful...
billyjoeallen
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May 28, 2011, 04:23:41 PM
 #26

...
Even if bitcoin fails, the peer-to-peer cryptocurrency technology will not and cannot go away. It will survive and grow because nothing else has the same properties, properties with utility.
Even if the infrastructure will get limited to 'registered-only' services?
I hope you're right.
I very much support the ideals where bitcoin stands for, especially to take control out of the hand of the banks.
But man are they powerful...

how could they limit the infrastructure? They can't even shut down Pirate Bay now. The Net treats censorship as damage and routs around it. The black market will grow until it becomes simply the market. There is no stopping it now.

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May 28, 2011, 04:26:44 PM
 #27

apparently bitcoin was on tv just now in sweden.

 Cheesy
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May 28, 2011, 07:36:48 PM
 #28

The last time somebody threw an Internet kill switch, their reign of power quickly ended. Very quickly. In the US especially, it would be political suicide to kill the Internet to stop Bitcoin.

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May 28, 2011, 09:11:20 PM
 #29

The whole system is nerd freindly only.

Seriously, if we want to go mainstream, there has to be some sort of user friendly program that can manage everything in a way our grandmother can understand it. Until then, BTC will be used for money laundering and illegal transactions until then.

My paraphrased thoughts.

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

If your a G please donate me some BTC 1N2Wv7KZTe29nX7bpircUzFsVdiA9LjvHJ
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May 29, 2011, 02:02:44 AM
 #30

all the bitcoin client really needs to be safe for the tech illiterate, is super simple encryption and backup of wallet.dat. I've seen so many hopeless computer users with machines that are riddled with viruses and other who get caught totally off guard by disk failures, etc.
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May 29, 2011, 02:11:28 AM
 #31

...
Yes, mining is specifically off-limits to new users. They shouldn't even be thinking about it. There's a good reason why it was removed from the original client  Cheesy
...
It was? Since when, i mean, what version? I just reinstalled Bitcoin with a fresh copy of the installer downloaded from the official site the same day and it still got the option in the same place it used to....

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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billyjoeallen
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May 29, 2011, 02:15:01 AM
 #32

The whole system is nerd freindly only.

Seriously, if we want to go mainstream, there has to be some sort of user friendly program that can manage everything in a way our grandmother can understand it. Until then, BTC will be used for money laundering and illegal transactions until then.

My paraphrased thoughts.

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

I don't think you fully comprehend how stupid the typical consumer really is.

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smooth
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May 29, 2011, 02:17:31 AM
 #33

The whole system is nerd freindly only.

Seriously, if we want to go mainstream, there has to be some sort of user friendly program that can manage everything in a way our grandmother can understand it. Until then, BTC will be used for money laundering and illegal transactions until then.

My paraphrased thoughts.

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

Still harder than most online shopping.  There needs to be some way of paying right from a web site rather than needing do to copy/paste on a Bitcoin address and switching to another application.  Probably a browser plug-in.

phillipsjk
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May 29, 2011, 02:19:45 AM
 #34

all the bitcoin client really needs to be safe for the tech illiterate, is super simple encryption and backup of wallet.dat. I've seen so many hopeless computer users with machines that are riddled with viruses and other who get caught totally off guard by disk failures, etc.

If the user doesn't control the machine, any encryption can not be fully trusted. IMO Crypto-currency is a very long term project that will take generations. A prerequisite for a crypto-currency is trusted (proven correct) computers completely controlled by the users. I don't think this will happen in my lifetime. Since 1996, the trend has been to take control away from the users.

That said, this is an important experiment, even if we know it will ultimately fail. The lessons we learn will help craft a "real" crypto-currency once the computer industry matures.


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elewton
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May 29, 2011, 02:21:26 AM
 #35

Bitcoin wallets have recently been implemented in Javascript.  That could be used for a Chrome OS plugin which is charged up, and then distributes BTC based on a "mailto:" style markup.
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May 29, 2011, 02:32:22 AM
 #36

A prerequisite for a crypto-currency is trusted (proven correct) computers completely controlled by the users. I don't think this will happen in my lifetime. Since 1996, the trend has been to take control away from the users.

Bitcoin is showing us how to do this, a little.  The solution is to make the "your computer" disappear and do the computation as a distributed process between untrusted participants.  

Currently your private keys are stored on your node/wallet so you have to trust that your own node isn't corrupted. But eventually the entire wallet could be stored "in the network" where only a majority of the nodes could access it without your cooperation.  Even corrupting your own node wouldn't work.
  
Not quite there yet, but Bitcoin is a nice step in that direction.





markm
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May 29, 2011, 02:46:12 AM
 #37

A prerequisite for a crypto-currency is trusted (proven correct) computers completely controlled by the users. I don't think this will happen in my lifetime. Since 1996, the trend has been to take control away from the users.

Bitcoin is showing us how to do this, a little.  The solution is to make the "your computer" disappear and do the computation as a distributed process between untrusted participants.  

Currently your private keys are stored on your node/wallet so you have to trust that your own node isn't corrupted. But eventually the entire wallet could be stored "in the network" where only a majority of the nodes could access it without your cooperation.  Even corrupting your own node wouldn't work.
  
Not quite there yet, but Bitcoin is a nice step in that direction.

http://www.erights.org/elang/index.html

-MarkM-

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ryepdx
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May 29, 2011, 03:10:51 AM
 #38

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

The obnoxious thing about bitcoins, in my opinion, is acquiring them. Paypal was probably the simplest way until that option was taken away from us. Dwolla is easily the next best thing for the average consumer now, but transferring funds into Dwolla is a looong process. It takes about two days, in my experience. I haven't tested using Dwolla to transfer funds directly from my bank account to, say Mt. Gox, but I don't imagine it's much faster. (Correct me if it is.) Most people don't have Dwolla anyway, and once you have a Dwolla account why not just use that to make a purchase? If you don't care about anonymity and if you're not looking to escape the fiat system, then for most purchases Dwolla makes more sense.

I think the killer application for bitcoins is fast and secure currency transferral. Right now it really isn't all that fast for most people as most people are trying to go from fiat to bitcoins to purchase. That process can take a few days at present. Two if you have a Dwolla account and need to transfer funds in. Four if you don't have a Dwolla account or don't have your bank account associated with your Dwolla account.

Best case scenario? I enter my credit/debit card info, the information gets verified, the card gets charged, I get bitcoins. I wager most people would be willing to pay a small premium to offset the cost of scammers if it meant getting bitcoins in their wallet within ten or fifteen minutes. It would be a boon for the bitcoin economy, too, as it would lower the barrier to entry for most people and would allow people to "strike while the iron is hot," so to speak. If someone catches the "bitcoin bug" and wants to buy bitcoins, they shouldn't have to wait more than an hour before they have bitcoins in their wallet.

Just my 0.02 BTC.

Also, the address system is a bit intimidating for most normals, I wager. I think web-based services which allow users to send currency by e-mail address or by name would be the best option for them. It would make the whole system a lot friendlier and a lot more pleasant to use.
markm
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May 29, 2011, 03:30:21 AM
 #39

Your granny can understand it, its simple, go to a site to buy them, enter address, buy them and get money, and to buy something send the money to the address with it and receive product.

The obnoxious thing about bitcoins, in my opinion, is acquiring them. Paypal was probably the simplest way until that option was taken away from us. Dwolla is easily the next best thing for the average consumer now, but transferring funds into Dwolla is a looong process. It takes about two days, in my experience. I haven't tested using Dwolla to transfer funds directly from my bank account to, say Mt. Gox, but I don't imagine it's much faster. (Correct me if it is.) Most people don't have Dwolla anyway, and once you have a Dwolla account why not just use that to make a purchase? If you don't care about anonymity and if you're not looking to escape the fiat system, then for most purchases Dwolla makes more sense.

I think the killer application for bitcoins is fast and secure currency transferral. Right now it really isn't all that fast for most people as most people are trying to go from fiat to bitcoins to purchase. That process can take a few days at present. Two if you have a Dwolla account and need to transfer funds in. Four if you don't have a Dwolla account or don't have your bank account associated with your Dwolla account.

Best case scenario? I enter my credit/debit card info, the information gets verified, the card gets charged, I get bitcoins. I wager most people would be willing to pay a small premium to offset the cost of scammers if it meant getting bitcoins in their wallet within ten or fifteen minutes. It would be a boon for the bitcoin economy, too, as it would lower the barrier to entry for most people and would allow people to "strike while the iron is hot," so to speak. If someone catches the "bitcoin bug" and wants to buy bitcoins, they shouldn't have to wait more than an hour before they have bitcoins in their wallet.

Just my 0.02 BTC.

Also, the address system is a bit intimidating for most normals, I wager. I think web-based services which allow users to send currency by e-mail address or by name would be the best option for them. It would make the whole system a lot friendlier and a lot more pleasant to use.

You are actually complaining about fiat currency, but you are mis-directing your complaint by trying to make it sound as if the problem is with the non-fiat currency.

If you had an actual money to begin with, people would accept it for bitcoin readily and easily.

For example you can buy bitcoin with pecunix or with liberty reserve, and if the feds had not shut down e-gold you'd be able to buy it with e-gold too.

It is not our fault that the fed shut down e-gold, thus limiting your options slightly.

If you find that buying bitcoin, liberty reserve, pecunix etc using fiat is made hard for you, go complain to your congresspeople or ombudspeople or what not telling them you don't want them reversing your transactions and so on. Or complain to your credit card provider about their giving you a hard time buying electronic currencies or something.

Once you have something reasonable in hand you are fine, a lot of blockchain based currencies become accessible easily once you have some bitcoin for example, since a lot of them don't care to bother at all with fiat, letting bitcoin serve as gateway to that stupid world so they do not have to.

-MarkM-

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May 29, 2011, 04:30:13 AM
 #40

You are actually complaining about fiat currency, but you are mis-directing your complaint by trying to make it sound as if the problem is with the non-fiat currency.

Wrong. I am complaining about the gateways to bitcoin that are available. Because the majority of the world still uses fiat currency this is an issue that merits some discussion.

If you had an actual money to begin with, people would accept it for bitcoin readily and easily.

For example you can buy bitcoin with pecunix or with liberty reserve, and if the feds had not shut down e-gold you'd be able to buy it with e-gold too.

But most of the world does not have Pecunix or Liberty Reserve, and most of the world doesn't want to have to go through another currency to get bitcoins. I don't care if I can get bitcoins with Pecunix or Liberty Reserve. I want to buy it directly. It's a major PITA to have to do this. It's a barrier to entry that is entirely unnecessary and you are only holding back the adoption rate by refusing to do anything about it.

It is not our fault that the fed shut down e-gold, thus limiting your options slightly.

You're right. Not your fault. But it is the fault of the community that we don't have convenient gateways in place for average consumer types who just want an easy way to make transactions online. Don't try passing the buck here. The problem remains, regardless of whose fault it is. I don't care whose fault it is. All I care about is seeing the issue solved.

If you find that buying bitcoin, liberty reserve, pecunix etc using fiat is made hard for you, go complain to your congresspeople or ombudspeople or what not telling them you don't want them reversing your transactions and so on. Or complain to your credit card provider about their giving you a hard time buying electronic currencies or something.

Sure, that's one way of doing things. You can go complain to someone else until they fix things for you. Honestly though? I doubt they care. I'd much rather see someone take this into their own hands and provide something now than see people sit on their hands until someone solves their problems for them.

Once you have something reasonable in hand you are fine, a lot of blockchain based currencies become accessible easily once you have some bitcoin for example, since a lot of them don't care to bother at all with fiat, letting bitcoin serve as gateway to that stupid world so they do not have to.

-MarkM-


Calling the world most people live in "stupid" does not make that world go away. The practical barriers still remain. The problems still want to be solved.

You know what? Screw it. I should just make this service. Anyone else interested? I'm working for a startup as their sole programmer, I'm trying to get a little bitcoin service called Bitcoin Pouch off the ground, I'm trying to learn Scala and implement yet another service in it, and I have to leave enough time for my girlfriend so she doesn't start to feel ignored. I'm a little swamped. Help would be greatly appreciated if I'm going to manage anything in this direction.
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