[CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx

[evoorhees]

So are you willing to confirm that you have in fact been, arbitrarily calculating payments?

I don't know what you mean by "arbitrarily calculating payments."  I explained how I calculate them. On the day that the bill is paid, I use the current BTC exchange rate. For each expense listed, I mentioned the date and if USD then I mentioned the exchange rate used on that day. What's complicated about that?

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[evoorhees]

I remember the point when SD started going downhill.  It was in early February right when voorhees issued all those shares which halved the value of everyone's stock.  Remember when he said the price would recover to the true value (which was about .0076/share at the time) within 2 days?  Yeah, still waiting for that lol... I am so glad I sold this trash before it tanked.  The asset, the site, and the management.  What a joke.

Ahhhh early February... you mean right before BTC went up 10x?

This is a question to shareholders who are very critical of me. Do you realize that when the BTC exchange rate goes up 10x, it means site earnings measured in USD must go up 10x as well in order to maintain the same share price?

All else equal, the fact that the exchange rate went up 10x and the site earnings in BTC did not drop to 1/10th means the site is growing in real terms. The fact that such extreme BTC appreciation makes it nearly impossible for nominal share price to increase is unfortunate, but is this the fault of SD?  

You do realize that if measured in a more stable store of value like USD or gold, SD's earnings have consistently increased over time, despite hordes of competitors, despite PR smear campaigns, and despite now a US blockage.

I understand people are upset because they haven't seen any visible movement (no new site, new features, etc.), and this is reasonable criticism that will only be put to rest once you see the new site. However, increasing site earnings by 10x over the course of 2-3 months in tandem with the exchange rate is an impossible task.

The USD-measured valuation of the shares at IPO was reasonable, and the USD-measured valuation of the shares today is reasonable. Indeed, the USD-measured valuation of the shares since IPO has increased, not decreased. Yet... the BTC exchange rate went up 10x and so the nominal share price is down, and this is what people see, unfortunately.

What I'm saying is, I think the criticism here is out of hand. The site is growing, it has avoided hacks of all shapes and sizes, it has navigated legal waters that threaten its very existence, it has maintained its position despite throngs of competitors, and it has done all of this with extremely low overhead.

I do not take a salary from SD. I am paid dividends per share like every other shareholder here, and yet I front all money for development, I have thousands of personal BTC on zero-interest loan to SD, at risk every day, to provide depth for SD's betting pool which shareholders receive the benefit of for free. I've paid significant legal expense out of pocket, for which SD shareholders receives direct benefit for free.  Still, some shareholders seem to think I've "shitted on them" because the share price hasn't increased nominally along with a 10x exchange rate increase. Tough crowd.

I'm not asking for people to be happy with the fact that the nominal share price has fallen. I'm simply asking for people to consider the context in which this has occurred - crucially, a 10x increase in the exchange rate.

[jonitas]

I do not take a salary from SD. I am paid dividends per share like every other shareholder here, and yet I front all money for development, I have thousands of personal BTC on zero-interest loan to SD, at risk every day, to provide depth for SD's betting pool which shareholders receive the benefit of for free. I've paid significant legal expense out of pocket, for which SD shareholders receives direct benefit for free.  Still, some shareholders seem to think I've "shitted on them" because the share price hasn't increased nominally along with a 10x exchange rate increase. Tough crowd.

I greatly appreciate all of this, I think its mostly the smaller and inexperienced investors that are being so vocal about their negative feelings. While a lot of bigger and long term investors keep quiet and keep having patience with the new things you are working on. It hasn't even been a year since the IPO! Yet people want to see +30% dividends every single month, otherwise they get irritated. I can understand them, it must be very hard to invest like that indeed!

Keep up the good work Erik!

[EskimoBob]

evoorhees, when are you going to distance yourself from that arrogant megalomaniac and pervert aka Mircea Popescu and turn this dipshit's "one stock bazaar" in to a "0 stock bazaar"?

This guys shitty "aura" (LOL!) arrogance and pathological narcissism are not good for your little adventures image.
Honestly. Qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent.

[Abu22]

So are you willing to confirm that you have in fact been, arbitrarily calculating payments?

I don't know what you mean by "arbitrarily calculating payments."  I explained how I calculate them. On the day that the bill is paid, I use the current BTC exchange rate. For each expense listed, I mentioned the date and if USD then I mentioned the exchange rate used on that day. What's complicated about that?

You said the original I.T guy had a salary of 100 btc a month, capped at $5000 worth. This is not what correlated with the price. Is the new guy at 10k a month now?

Yes, it's the fault of SD. You can easily average the months fluctuations (or the past months) as long as you're CONSISTENT with how you do it...Not pick one day in the month where you cherry pick a good day to pay.

You could do it as all payments calc'd on the 4th, idgaf. The way you're doing it now is frankly, dumb as shit.

BTC, is what has gained value, you started this up in it's early days, Bitcoin has done well...This is a boat floating on that water.

It's not the share price that is the direct concern, it's the whole handling of the business (From what little you leak about it...But shit you take a lot of probing to get any real answer from...)

So again, I'll ask.
-Has there been any consistency with method of payment calculations, if so what exactly is that. (8th time asked now?)

-Will the 'big announment' be announced this month? Is there even one?

please answer these straightforwardly. It shouldn't need bullet points, colour, bolding and enlarged font... maybe when I get to the 10th ask I'll consider it.

[Pale Phoenix]

From my (limited) experience and from what I could get together eavesdropping on MPEx people, generally speaking investing works thusly: optimal chunks are decided (we want 1%, 0.1%, 10% of this company for strategic investors, we want 1%, 0.1%, 10% of our capital in this company for everyone else). This process is based on some sort of fundamental considerations, into which price (current or historical) does not figure. The trades are then executed (there may be some timing skulduggery involved here) and the desired positions entered. This situation continues until a new decision as to the optimal chunks is made (perhaps on a yearly review), after which more trades are executed to attain the new desired position.

I'm not saying it's positive necessarily, I'm not really discussing that angle. Just trying to make the point that not everybody is as last price driven as the average forum user - in a probably doomed attempt to restore some balance to the discussion. And when I say "not everybody" what I really mean is "no actual investor".

Perhaps it is your "limited experience," or perhaps your spinning and dissembling have reached new levels of absurdity.

Of course price is considered when making ANY investment; it's integral to even the most basic calculations related to expected return on capital, such as net present value or internal rate of return. You must have started eavesdropping too late in those conversations you overheard because these analyses are done prior to making decisions about how to allocate capital.

It's painfully obvious to all of us lowly forum users, who aren't "actual investors," that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm sure it's standard PR procedure to apologize when you've needlessly and erroneously insulted people evaluating an asset you purport to represent.

[Pale Phoenix]

You do realize that if measured in a more stable store of value like USD or gold, SD's earnings have consistently increased over time, despite hordes of competitors, despite PR smear campaigns, and despite now a US blockage.

This is precisely the problem with all BTC denominated assets, as it can trip up even sophisticated investors who aren't familiar with currency risk. You might head off some of the criticism if you included reference currency statistics in footnotes to the monthly reports. I realize that including fiat based statistics might raise ideological objections, but the fact is, SD is not really a pure BTC play because betting is highly influenced by exchange rates.

Adding more frequent updates about progress toward the new site design and features would probably also reassure investors that the captain is still at the helm. The single post you made above is more forthright and reassuring than anything put out by the various PR agents involved.

For me, SD is a buy at these prices, but there is room for improvement with regard to shareholder communication.

[MPOE-PR]

It's painfully obvious to all of us lowly forum users, who aren't "actual investors," that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm sure it's standard PR procedure to apologize when you've needlessly and erroneously insulted people evaluating an asset you purport to represent.

So you joined last month and things are already obvious to "us", by which us you denote you and all the mice in your pocket(s)?

Try reading what I said again, this time coming from a place of "this person is probably a lot smarter than me and certainly better informed" rather than coming from your current "I imagine this person's regard of me isn't as high as my own and therefore measures must be urgently taken!". The results may astound you.

[ar9]

Try employing a concept called "verstehen" (look it up) and the astonishment will be yours, MPOE-PR. 

[RationalSpeculator]

I do not take a salary from SD. I am paid dividends per share like every other shareholder here, and yet I front all money for development, I have thousands of personal BTC on zero-interest loan to SD, at risk every day, to provide depth for SD's betting pool which shareholders receive the benefit of for free. I've paid significant legal expense out of pocket, for which SD shareholders receives direct benefit for free.  Still, some shareholders seem to think I've "shitted on them" because the share price hasn't increased nominally along with a 10x exchange rate increase. Tough crowd.

I'm not asking for people to be happy with the fact that the nominal share price has fallen. I'm simply asking for people to consider the context in which this has occurred - crucially, a 10x increase in the exchange rate.

Hi Erik,

I'm sorry for all the crap you are getting from people. That must be frustrating for you.

I sometimes feel embarrassed by what I read here and am using the ignore button more and more.

I don't think you need to treat people better as they treat you. Shareholder or not.

I realize the great value you offer in so many ways to Satoshi Dice shareholders, players, and the bitcoin economy.

Thank you so much

[MPOE-PR]

Try employing a concept called "verstehen" (look it up) and the astonishment will be yours, MPOE-PR. 

Oh looky, pedestrian antipositivism. You'll do exceptionally well in Bitcoin, for any values of well that equal amusing.

[Zebulon Pike]

I think that a lot of Erik's points are good ones, and I certainly think that the tone, if not the substance, of a lot of the questions/criticisms on this board are out of line.  People can demand that SD take a more "mainstream" or "professional" approach to shareholder relations if they are unwilling to act in a courteous and "professional" manner as investors (who do not traditionally get to flame corporate CEOs directly in message boards).

That said, while obviously the exchange rate change made a huge difference, it is disingenuous to keep highlighting the 10x number with regards to valuation and dividends.  If this were the primary factor at play, then when the price dropped back down to 5x of what it was in February, then theoretically share price should have doubled from what it was at the peak of the exchange rate, which isn't what happened.

While I totally agree that both gamblers and investors still considering their decisions based on USD values rather than the BTC denominations of the bets/shares played a part in driving the price down, it's definitely only half of the story, as evidenced by the fact that there is not an inverse relationship between share value in BTC and BTC value in USD.  While share values dropped as BTC value rose, when BTC value fell, so did share price.  They are closer to non-correlated than negatively correlated.

Still holding my shares, and still interested to see what the future holds for SD, but let's make sure we are all thinking rationally about this.  Frankly, I think that Erik (thanks, Erik) has done a pretty good job of resisting the urge to get down in the muck with the trolls, for a guy whose job is not really PR.  Everyone, disgruntled investors especially, needs to realize that this isn't the NYSE.  We weren't buying into an established company, we were investing in what was essentially a start-up, and that can often mean taking losses for months or even a year or two before seeing profits.  If you are that risk-averse, or only interested in short-term gains, you shouldn't be in any Bitcoin company stocks most likely.

[evoorhees]

I think that a lot of Erik's points are good ones, and I certainly think that the tone, if not the substance, of a lot of the questions/criticisms on this board are out of line.  People can demand that SD take a more "mainstream" or "professional" approach to shareholder relations if they are unwilling to act in a courteous and "professional" manner as investors (who do not traditionally get to flame corporate CEOs directly in message boards).

That said, while obviously the exchange rate change made a huge difference, it is disingenuous to keep highlighting the 10x number with regards to valuation and dividends.  If this were the primary factor at play, then when the price dropped back down to 5x of what it was in February, then theoretically share price should have doubled from what it was at the peak of the exchange rate, which isn't what happened.

While I totally agree that both gamblers and investors still considering their decisions based on USD values rather than the BTC denominations of the bets/shares played a part in driving the price down, it's definitely only half of the story, as evidenced by the fact that there is not an inverse relationship between share value in BTC and BTC value in USD.  While share values dropped as BTC value rose, when BTC value fell, so did share price.  They are closer to non-correlated than negatively correlated.

Still holding my shares, and still interested to see what the future holds for SD, but let's make sure we are all thinking rationally about this.  Frankly, I think that Erik (thanks, Erik) has done a pretty good job of resisting the urge to get down in the muck with the trolls, for a guy whose job is not really PR.  Everyone, disgruntled investors especially, needs to realize that this isn't the NYSE.  We weren't buying into an established company, we were investing in what was essentially a start-up, and that can often mean taking losses for months or even a year or two before seeing profits.  If you are that risk-averse, or only interested in short-term gains, you shouldn't be in any Bitcoin company stocks most likely.

Well-reasoned, well-written commentary. Thank you for your comments Zebulon.

[Abu22]

Holy shit, you reply within a little over 12 hours to ass kissing, yet still takes weeks to answer any questions (or give your PR the information to do so) ..And when you do 'answer' them, it's avoidant missing the point entirely or saying you'll answer later. What gives?

As Zebulon said, perhaps the tone of my (I strongly disagree with the substance part) has been increasingly 'out of line'. But please, if you will, refer back to where I made the original posts of the same few matters that I have been waiting for the addressal of. If all you or your PR are willing to inform about is generic half-truths and time biders  I'm afraid to expect anything different of escalating irritation with you and your business practices would be naive.

[Draino]

I remember the point when SD started going downhill.  It was in early February right when voorhees issued all those shares which halved the value of everyone's stock.  Remember when he said the price would recover to the true value (which was about .0076/share at the time) within 2 days?  Yeah, still waiting for that lol... I am so glad I sold this trash before it tanked.  The asset, the site, and the management.  What a joke.

Ahhhh early February... you mean right before BTC went up 10x?

This is a question to shareholders who are very critical of me. Do you realize that when the BTC exchange rate goes up 10x, it means site earnings measured in USD must go up 10x as well in order to maintain the same share price?

All else equal, the fact that the exchange rate went up 10x and the site earnings in BTC did not drop to 1/10th means the site is growing in real terms. The fact that such extreme BTC appreciation makes it nearly impossible for nominal share price to increase is unfortunate, but is this the fault of SD?  

You do realize that if measured in a more stable store of value like USD or gold, SD's earnings have consistently increased over time, despite hordes of competitors, despite PR smear campaigns, and despite now a US blockage.

I understand people are upset because they haven't seen any visible movement (no new site, new features, etc.), and this is reasonable criticism that will only be put to rest once you see the new site. However, increasing site earnings by 10x over the course of 2-3 months in tandem with the exchange rate is an impossible task.

The USD-measured valuation of the shares at IPO was reasonable, and the USD-measured valuation of the shares today is reasonable. Indeed, the USD-measured valuation of the shares since IPO has increased, not decreased. Yet... the BTC exchange rate went up 10x and so the nominal share price is down, and this is what people see, unfortunately.

What I'm saying is, I think the criticism here is out of hand. The site is growing, it has avoided hacks of all shapes and sizes, it has navigated legal waters that threaten its very existence, it has maintained its position despite throngs of competitors, and it has done all of this with extremely low overhead.

I do not take a salary from SD. I am paid dividends per share like every other shareholder here, and yet I front all money for development, I have thousands of personal BTC on zero-interest loan to SD, at risk every day, to provide depth for SD's betting pool which shareholders receive the benefit of for free. I've paid significant legal expense out of pocket, for which SD shareholders receives direct benefit for free.  Still, some shareholders seem to think I've "shitted on them" because the share price hasn't increased nominally along with a 10x exchange rate increase. Tough crowd.

I'm not asking for people to be happy with the fact that the nominal share price has fallen. I'm simply asking for people to consider the context in which this has occurred - crucially, a 10x increase in the exchange rate.

Some understanding from your side might be helpful here.  Shares were dumped at a bad time for shareholders, and people who invested during that time lost a great deal of opportunity cost; incidentally, that value was transferred to you, in a way, due to timing.  Additionally, there's been no attempt to even pretend you want to redeem shareholders.  Instead you're apparently asking for sympathy, poorly: "I have thousands of personal BTC [...]."  Really?  I'm told running a business is hard, but I'm not going to weep.  In fact, I (as a shareholder) feel like you used me as a cash grab, intentionally or not, for the sin of believing in you.

[ar9]

Thanks for being a great CEO Erik!
(I expect a reply in 12 hours)

I echo Draino and Abu's concerns.
(No reply, ever.)

You manipulated shareholders, Erik.
I don't know why you're getting a pass with so many people on these forums.  My guess is that they're kids who don't know the first thing about running a company and offering shares to the public.

[wtfvanity]

Thanks for being a great CEO Erik!
(I expect a reply in 12 hours)

I echo Draino and Abu's concerns.
(No reply, ever.)

You manipulated shareholders, Erik.
I don't know why you're getting a pass with so many people on these forums.  My guess is that they're kids who don't know the first thing about running a company and offering shares to the public.

If you don't like what he is doing, sell your shares. The people that truly don't like getting jerked around if they so felt that way, did so a long time ago.

[Abu22]

Thanks for being a great CEO Erik!
(I expect a reply in 12 hours)

I echo Draino and Abu's concerns.
(No reply, ever.)

You manipulated shareholders, Erik.
I don't know why you're getting a pass with so many people on these forums.  My guess is that they're kids who don't know the first thing about running a company and offering shares to the public.

If you don't like what he is doing, sell your shares. The people that truly don't like getting jerked around if they so felt that way, did so a long time ago.

That's the statement of an idiot, just shut up. Regardless if I or anybody else has shares, did have them or wants to hold them in the future, valid criticism of what's going on with SD's current shambles of management is justified. What do you possibly have to gain from white knighting an issue you clearly have no understanding the context of. You can say rape is bad without having ever raped, been raped or known anyone who has. Just as you can say SD is acting badly without it really affecting you.

The people who got out when they did (for reasons far more varied than just the emerging display of poor business practice) did so because of whatever reasons they did. The people still with shares, have them because they believe SD still holds a very powerful position in the btc world, and if they actually were to use that leverage that they hold properly, Satoshi Dice could become the great thing it once was. It's like SD was the first living cell. Then time passed and all these other things evolved to a degree from it... You can't say that SD is still the best because it was first and therefor it doesn't need to improve or match the multi-celled organisms to compete.

On a side note, does anybody know what level or field of education Erik is in / has attained? We can rule out Business, CS/I.T and Communication for sure.

Sigh, I used to see him in such a good light..Thinking he was a great free market, libertarian-esqe thinker, no he's almost become one of the villains.

[RationalSpeculator]

Thanks for being a great CEO Erik!
(I expect a reply in 12 hours)

I echo Draino and Abu's concerns.
(No reply, ever.)

You manipulated shareholders, Erik.
I don't know why you're getting a pass with so many people on these forums.  My guess is that they're kids who don't know the first thing about running a company and offering shares to the public.

If you don't like what he is doing, sell your shares. The people that truly don't like getting jerked around if they so felt that way, did so a long time ago.

Indeed, that's a strong indication that they are in it for the verbal abuse they can dump on Erik. They probably have been verbally abused themselves, probably by their closest relatives, and are now transfering that shit to others. They prefer victims that cannot fight back or escape easily as that was exactly what happened to them. I can strongly relate with this kind of behavior as I have done the same in the past, transfering my shit to others unjustly. The way to break that cycle is to not accept any chit anymore yourself, or give back the chit to the ones that gave it, probably some close relatives.

Here a conversation with someone who realizes he is rejecting good people and why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boRTelS8iK4

[Korbman]

Am I the only one that finds this thread to be quite comical?

On the one hand, we have tons of newbie accounts (85% likely to be puppets, but still) complaining that SD has been a poorly run and terrible overall investment.

On the other hand, we have people who recognize the difficulties of running a business and praise Erik for the work he's put in so far. I concur with this group, and I can only imagine some of the hardships Erik is encountering, both on legal and financial fronts as he grows the business.

It seems, however, that the first group doesn't quite understand A) how businesses are run, B) how market conditions (including both currency fluctuations and competition) can influence share price, and C) that achieving 20%+ annual ROI is better than just about any other investment you'll be able to find (either in the "real world" or Bitcoin).

Sooo...remind me again why Erik should have to answer to a bunch of trolling, butt-hurt children who are angry because they haven't made millions off of SD in the past 3 months?