Buying and holding BTC without mining..

[yeponlyone]

No, I mean if you are not mining you are not protecting the network.  You are letting it become more and more centralized and in time allow the mining farms to decide the Bitcoin Protocol.

Black listed coins..
More than 21 million supply..

There are things that you can do. For example run a node via a small device. That's pretty simple and help decentralization.
You can't do anything about mining. It's a competitive race on a industrial scale.

The two ideas that you've mentioned are very bad. That solves nothing.

Just to point out. If you have large amount or even 51% of the network hashrate, you will not be able to change the protocol at all. the network would simply reject your blocks unless you convince everyone to use a bitcoin client that you created which includes the modified protocol rules.

[Amph]

the difference is that, you will not increase your total bitcoin, by holding only, while with mining, if you manage to reach the roi point, you can earn more bitcoin than the amount you started with

If that's the case, then why not trade and make them?
I have seen people talking all the time to buy on rumors and sell on news, and if an average joe gets a good command on that, he might make a good living with BTC.

trading is more risky, instead mining can generate a guaranteed return in the end, if you have very cheap electricity and you paid a low amount for your miner

mining is equally risky. you have to take care of the management and the risk of hardware failures. bfl and gawminer has shown us how reliable mining manufacturers are. even if you have cheap electricity, the difficulty increase is unpredictable and you would still have chances of not getting roi thus making no profits.

i still see it as a less risky, you don't need to be a pro at mining, where for trading you really need to have some serious experience, or you will end up losing everything

mining is more noob friendly for sure, this is way many newbies ask for it

[dothebeats]

the difference is that, you will not increase your total bitcoin, by holding only, while with mining, if you manage to reach the roi point, you can earn more bitcoin than the amount you started with

If that's the case, then why not trade and make them?
I have seen people talking all the time to buy on rumors and sell on news, and if an average joe gets a good command on that, he might make a good living with BTC.

trading is more risky, instead mining can generate a guaranteed return in the end, if you have very cheap electricity and you paid a low amount for your miner

mining is equally risky. you have to take care of the management and the risk of hardware failures. bfl and gawminer has shown us how reliable mining manufacturers are. even if you have cheap electricity, the difficulty increase is unpredictable and you would still have chances of not getting roi thus making no profits.

i still see it as a less risky, you don't need to be a pro at mining, where for trading you really need to have some serious experience, or you will end up losing everything

mining is more noob friendly for sure, this is way many newbies ask for it

Though mining is noob-friendly, still it isn't budget-friendly. Power bills will surely eat your investment if you do not have an effective and efficient hardware. To be successful in mining, you must have the powerful hardware and a low electricity bill. GPUs and CPUs aren't that effective in mining nowadays, though there are still some altcoins out there that can be mined with those.

[lucullus]

What do you mean?

Like if you let the coins stay in exchanges?

No, I mean if you are not mining you are not protecting the network.  You are letting it become more and more centralized and in time allow the mining farms to decide the Bitcoin Protocol.

Black listed coins..
More than 21 million supply..

Explain in detail how you expect them to pull that off. Let's say some mining farms collude to introduce a hard ford and expand the supply of bitcoin beyond 21 million coins. How do they do that without tanking the price horribly, destroying their own multi-million dollar investments? While honest players stick with the honest fork until it regains traction as everyone flocks away from the destroyed false fork.

Well said

[Amph]

the difference is that, you will not increase your total bitcoin, by holding only, while with mining, if you manage to reach the roi point, you can earn more bitcoin than the amount you started with

If that's the case, then why not trade and make them?
I have seen people talking all the time to buy on rumors and sell on news, and if an average joe gets a good command on that, he might make a good living with BTC.

trading is more risky, instead mining can generate a guaranteed return in the end, if you have very cheap electricity and you paid a low amount for your miner

mining is equally risky. you have to take care of the management and the risk of hardware failures. bfl and gawminer has shown us how reliable mining manufacturers are. even if you have cheap electricity, the difficulty increase is unpredictable and you would still have chances of not getting roi thus making no profits.

i still see it as a less risky, you don't need to be a pro at mining, where for trading you really need to have some serious experience, or you will end up losing everything

mining is more noob friendly for sure, this is way many newbies ask for it

Though mining is noob-friendly, still it isn't budget-friendly. Power bills will surely eat your investment if you do not have an effective and efficient hardware. To be successful in mining, you must have the powerful hardware and a low electricity bill. GPUs and CPUs aren't that effective in mining nowadays, though there are still some altcoins out there that can be mined with those.

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

[InceptionCoin]

Just to point out. If you have large amount or even 51% of the network hashrate, you will not be able to change the protocol at all. the network would simply reject your blocks unless you convince everyone to use a bitcoin client that you created which includes the modified protocol rules.

Yes. But imagine cartel of miners(70+%) announced protocol change. Some people agree, some people dont(well lets say that majority of people dont).
We will get 2forks bitcoin-TRUE and bitcoin-MINERS. But now bitcoin-TRUE isn't secure, cartel could create as much double-spends as they want. So merchants will be imposed to switch to bitcoin-MINERS as only this fork will be secured. After that users will switch to it.
Problem mentioned in the OP-post is that: if you just buying coins but dont bother about security(including security of the network against centralisation) you will eventually loose your coins.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

What do you mean?

Like if you let the coins stay in exchanges?

No, I mean if you are not mining you are not protecting the network.  You are letting it become more and more centralized and in time allow the mining farms to decide the Bitcoin Protocol.

Black listed coins..
More than 21 million supply..

It's difficult to keep a profit going because you need a lot of variables to be able to tick, basically time, power consumption, electricity and price of it.. in hopes to get a positive profit.

You can help BTC by simply having the Bitcoin-QT opened and act as a node.

[spazzdla]

What do you mean?

Like if you let the coins stay in exchanges?

No, I mean if you are not mining you are not protecting the network.  You are letting it become more and more centralized and in time allow the mining farms to decide the Bitcoin Protocol.

Black listed coins..
More than 21 million supply..

Explain in detail how you expect them to pull that off. Let's say some mining farms collude to introduce a hard ford and expand the supply of bitcoin beyond 21 million coins. How do they do that without tanking the price horribly, destroying their own multi-million dollar investments? While honest players stick with the honest fork until it regains traction as everyone flocks away from the destroyed false fork.

Well said

Easy.. the public are dumb as rocks.

Bitcoin gets moving, the govs tell the people the supply cannot be limited the plebs believe them, the mining farms change it as they now can mine forever with profit.  We are ignored and bamzo there we go.

It is almost like how can America leave the gold standard without hyperinflation..............

[yeponlyone]

Just to point out. If you have large amount or even 51% of the network hashrate, you will not be able to change the protocol at all. the network would simply reject your blocks unless you convince everyone to use a bitcoin client that you created which includes the modified protocol rules.

Yes. But imagine cartel of miners(70+%) announced protocol change. Some people agree, some people dont(well lets say that majority of people dont).
We will get 2forks bitcoin-TRUE and bitcoin-MINERS. But now bitcoin-TRUE isn't secure, cartel could create as much double-spends as they want. So merchants will be imposed to switch to bitcoin-MINERS as only this fork will be secured. After that users will switch to it.
Problem mentioned in the OP-post is that: if you just buying coins but dont bother about security(including security of the network against centralisation) you will eventually loose your coins.

calculate the cost of even getting 51% first. Let's say one pool with huge hashrates wants to make a hardfork so the other legitmate network would be left with very few percentage. but most miners with brains would definitely leave that pool and join another legitimate one. The legitimate fork would then be faster than the other one. Even if someone with large hashrate decides to shut down his farm, 51% attack is still difficult to pull off due to the huge cost.
Moreover, most miners survive on the Bitcoin and they care about the exchange rate. If the entire network propose to change the limit, the price would definitely tank thus giving the miners no benefits.

[2double0]

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

But instead of wasting months waiting for your ROI, I would rather go for just buy and hold same as the OP (or else, gamble a bit)

[AgentofCoin]

What do you mean?

Like if you let the coins stay in exchanges?

No, I mean if you are not mining you are not protecting the network.  You are letting it become more and more centralized and in time allow the mining farms to decide the Bitcoin Protocol.

Black listed coins..
More than 21 million supply..

Explain in detail how you expect them to pull that off. Let's say some mining farms collude to introduce a hard ford and expand the supply of bitcoin beyond 21 million coins. How do they do that without tanking the price horribly, destroying their own multi-million dollar investments? While honest players stick with the honest fork until it regains traction as everyone flocks away from the destroyed false fork.

Well said

Easy.. the public are dumb as rocks.

Bitcoin gets moving, the govs tell the people the supply cannot be limited the plebs believe them, the mining farms change it as they now can mine forever with profit.  We are ignored and bamzo there we go.

It is almost like how can America leave the gold standard without hyperinflation..............

What you describe is very possible.. but you are forgetting that if that happens, then the btc price will fall to nothing and then will die.
So, the mining farms should seal their fate by making unlimited gold and destroy that which they rely upon? I think not.

I suspect if that happens, we will have two chains, the true bitcoin verse the gov co-op'd bitcoin.
I also suspect that the "true bitcoin" chain will be way more valuable.

[manselr]

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

But instead of wasting months waiting for your ROI, I would rather go for just buy and hold same as the OP (or else, gamble a bit)

ROI shouldnt be important in long term... just bet money that you can afford to lose. It's all about big gains long term.

[maku]

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

But instead of wasting months waiting for your ROI, I would rather go for just buy and hold same as the OP (or else, gamble a bit)

ROI shouldnt be important in long term... just bet money that you can afford to lose. It's all about big gains long term.

And that is not certain in grand scheme of bitcoin scheme. For what we know bitcoin could be replaced with other better cryptocurrency tomorrow (and even if that is unlikely to happen many people believe that it won't be around for 100+ years due to rapid technological progress of hardware). If you only believe that in 20 years you will be millionaire with just couple of bitcoins you are probably wrong.

[Beliathon]

Is like buying a gold mine and not having guards.

You have zero say in what happens to the coins you own.  

We have guards, they are the laws of the universe and cannot be broken. You can attack a vault, kill some people, and steal their gold. Try that with bitcoin, and, well..

[cellard]

Is like buying a gold mine and not having guards.

You have zero say in what happens to the coins you own.  

We have guards, they are the laws of the universe and cannot be broken. You can attack a vault, kill some people, and steal their gold. Try that with bitcoin, and, well..

Indeed. I sleep better at night knowing that my wealth on Bitcoin from that perspective, not so much due the crazy volatility but thats a given if you want to be a pioneer and that I can deal with.

[H.W.Z]

But the more coins you have the more you mine.
I would buy and mine but that is propably my opinion.

I think you misunderstood the mechanics of the bitcoin mining algorithm, which is based on SHA 256 through PoW, completely different from PoS as you means.

[Amph]

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

But instead of wasting months waiting for your ROI, I would rather go for just buy and hold same as the OP (or else, gamble a bit)

ROI shouldnt be important in long term... just bet money that you can afford to lose. It's all about big gains long term.

And that is not certain in grand scheme of bitcoin scheme. For what we know bitcoin could be replaced with other better cryptocurrency tomorrow (and even if that is unlikely to happen many people believe that it won't be around for 100+ years due to rapid technological progress of hardware). If you only believe that in 20 years you will be millionaire with just couple of bitcoins you are probably wrong.

i don't see this happening, if the bitcoin tech and protocol, or anything related to it, will be also "upgraded" to keep with the progress of the technology in general

bitcoin is still in beta, plenty of stuff can be made for it, it the dev team will continue to work hard for bitcoin, than no other coin can replace it, at best there will be other alternative coin, like in fiat you have dollars and euro as the two big

[lihuajkl]

the difference is that, you will not increase your total bitcoin, by holding only, while with mining, if you manage to reach the roi point, you can earn more bitcoin than the amount you started with

If that's the case, then why not trade and make them?
I have seen people talking all the time to buy on rumors and sell on news, and if an average joe gets a good command on that, he might make a good living with BTC.

At this bear market, it is difficulty to make money using the strategy. Once you bought it, you wouldn't sell out easily at your target price in near future. So I would recommend buy at this low price level and hold for the future. But if you don't believe it, or feel uncomfortable to see the price declining, then feel free to cash out all of your holding to have a good sleep. 

[yeponlyone]

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

But instead of wasting months waiting for your ROI, I would rather go for just buy and hold same as the OP (or else, gamble a bit)

ROI shouldnt be important in long term... just bet money that you can afford to lose. It's all about big gains long term.

I disagree with this statement. i haven't heard of anyone who has made money from cloudmining in the long term. most of these who claims guaranteed roi are just liars who want to trick people to invest. there are some companies which has gone scam even when the owners are trusted in the bitcoin mining industry. example, friedcat. your best choice is to buy and hold since the difficulty will increase and before you know it, your earnings may not even cover maintenance fees.

[Undermood]

the difference is that, you will not increase your total bitcoin, by holding only, while with mining, if you manage to reach the roi point, you can earn more bitcoin than the amount you started with

If that's the case, then why not trade and make them?
I have seen people talking all the time to buy on rumors and sell on news, and if an average joe gets a good command on that, he might make a good living with BTC.

trading is more risky, instead mining can generate a guaranteed return in the end, if you have very cheap electricity and you paid a low amount for your miner

mining is equally risky. you have to take care of the management and the risk of hardware failures. bfl and gawminer has shown us how reliable mining manufacturers are. even if you have cheap electricity, the difficulty increase is unpredictable and you would still have chances of not getting roi thus making no profits.

i still see it as a less risky, you don't need to be a pro at mining, where for trading you really need to have some serious experience, or you will end up losing everything

mining is more noob friendly for sure, this is way many newbies ask for it

Though mining is noob-friendly, still it isn't budget-friendly. Power bills will surely eat your investment if you do not have an effective and efficient hardware. To be successful in mining, you must have the powerful hardware and a low electricity bill. GPUs and CPUs aren't that effective in mining nowadays, though there are still some altcoins out there that can be mined with those.

if you are really worried about your bills, then those guys can try cloud mining, there is no bills there, and roi is the same, since those company use the best miner available, it is also less stressful then setup your own miners(no maintanance no noise or ewverything)

If you consider cloud mining as an investment, I wouldn't recommend to do it due to the low or negative ROI. Check this thread Is Cloud Mining Profitable?(https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=982594.0) . But you can still buy a few contracts to try it out!