[BF and BTCT] Gamma SatoshiDICE Pass Through

[btcash]

I have been contacted by the BF owner,
I wanted to check what your opinions are off moving GSDPT to BitFunder?
//DeaDTerra

With both platforms having highly questionable TOS (= basically no responsibility for anything) it all boils down to the question of who has the lowest fees.  

Are you kidding?
BitFunder barley has TOS:

   We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
    WARNING: Use at your own risk.
    You must agree to 1 and 2.

Lowest fees should never be the main reason. Usability, functionality and trustworthiness are way more important.
Bitfunder has no real TOS, no history and no Contact information.
BTC-TC is a registered company, owned by a well know member of the Bitcoin community and has way more advanced script than Bitfunder.
Just looking at the fees would be foolish.

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[Ukyo]

I have been contacted by the BF owner,
I wanted to check what your opinions are off moving GSDPT to BitFunder?
//DeaDTerra

With both platforms having highly questionable TOS (= basically no responsibility for anything) it all boils down to the question of who has the lowest fees.  

Are you kidding?
BitFunder barley has TOS:

   We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
    WARNING: Use at your own risk.
    You must agree to 1 and 2.

Lowest fees should never be the main reason. Usability, functionality and trustworthiness are way more important.
Bitfunder has no real TOS, no FAQs and no Contact information.
BTC-TC is a registered company, owned by a well know member of the Bitcoin community and has way more advanced script than Bitfunder.
Just looking at the fees would be foolish.

Hey btcash,

Did you see the 'help' link at the top right of the site?

Yes, fee's alone are never a good thing to go by. You get what you pay for!

As for not having a real ToS, when the other sites repeat over and over in a very long method that either a. Nothing on the site is real, and has no value, and they take no responsibility for anything, or B. immediately states that they assume no responsibility or liability for any consequences as a result of using the services, anything beyond those statement is just fluff to re-enforce the original statement in further detail since there are no responsibilities to the users. (That I see anywhere, I could be wrong...)

Cryptostocks is a longer and more detailed version of "We will not, we do not". no where does it state that they "will" do anything.
https://cryptostocks.com/terms

btct.co is no different. Their terms have plenty of "Obligations of BTC-TC Registered Users, Member Companies and Interactions Between Buyers and Sellers"
but there are NO obligations that the site has to the users.
https://btct.co/register - (I am not sure why the 'Terms of Service' link at the bottom of their site is a /register url.. but that's what works.)

I don't even see a remark that they will make every effort try to do their best. At least I will promise you that!
BitFunder also makes all asset information fully public by way of a user specified bitcoin address. You know there is no funny business, extra shares, etc.

If you would feel better for me to write up as many possible detailed methods of explaining various events regarding the usage of the system, and how you are responsible, and the site is not, then I will spend the time to do it. I just feel that "Everything in the room is red" should not need a followup of "The desk is red, the walls are red, the carpet is red." I am seriously not trying to be an ass or sarcastic in _any_ way. I made BitFunder to help the community, and to be what people want. If you say do it, I will.

When I spoke to Terra, he asked me for a copy of my id. I did not hesitate to say no problem. I have a scanned and (very clear) copy ready for him.
I owned and operated my own datacenter of 2,500~7,500 sqft (growth over time) for nearly 8 years. I sold off a few years ago to spend time with my family of now 4 children. The people who took over the company ended up crashing it to the ground attempting to save money. Some of my customers of 8+yrs and even from as recent as before I left came to me directly after that at which I have taken care of them once again for the last year or so. I have hosted http://ozcoin.net a great mining pool ran by Graet for the last year as well.

I currently have 3 corporations setup for WeExchange (an AUD,CAD, USD btc exchange), and working towards getting one of two financial licenses for it to be able to offer debit cards. I am also using those discussions with my consultants currently to try to find a way to better legalize BitFunder, as it is requires very special needs. (Such as being a sudo securities exchange that does not use real currency.) We have decided that just registering a corporation in some other country and claiming the system is for entertainment purposes would not remove the liabilities. If anything, it could make it look worse, as a cover up for citizens to gamble online, and many other things. From what I have read, cyrptostocks is at the same point BitFunder is and are diligently looking for a proper solution as well.

Due to my business history, my personal information is all over the web. If you wish to talk about my credentials further, I invite all of you to IRC where we can get to know each other better. I learned a long time ago to avoid forums. I generally have just read posts on here and avoided posting. I am an IRC guy, and have been on the bitcoin channels for a year and half now if not longer. You will notice my forums account was registered on July 20, 2011. I am sure you can understand why someone would want to avoid all the drama and scandals here unless they had a reason to insert them selves into it.

I hope this helps to clarify things!

Also, I noticed that you have never posted in the GSDPT thread before, other than to +1 btct. It just made me curious if you happen to own any shares of GSDPT?

[IIOII]

Lowest fees should never be the main reason. Usability, functionality and trustworthiness are way more important.

That's true. As it was not apparent from my previous comment: All of these platforms are equally untrustworthy for me.
(So I'm not descriminating against a particular platform. )

Assuming this, I'd simply go for the one with the lowest fees.

If you are the operator of one of these platforms: Please don't take this personally. I appreciate all business iniatives. But nowadays trust is hard to earn in the Bitcoin community.


Edit: Or, alternatively go for the one with the best liquidity and reasonable fees.

[Ukyo]

Lowest fees should never be the main reason. Usability, functionality and trustworthiness are way more important.

That's true. As it was not apparent from my previous comment: All of these platforms are equally untrustworthy for me.
(So I'm not descriminating against a particular platform. )

Assuming this, I'd simply go for the one with the lowest fees.

If you are the operator of one of these platforms: Please don't take this personally. I appreciate all business instinctive. But nowadays trust is hard to earn in the Bitcoin community.

Hey, with everything that has happened over the last two years... I wholeheartedly agree.
That is why I made the the public asset list for people. I want the system to be as transparent as possible so that everyone knows I am doing my best to make sure everything is on the line. I know at least one other person managing an exchange has questioned this, but I can not imagine how everyone knowing things can be a bad thing and never got a reason as to why it was not a good idea other than perhaps they do not understand how bitcoin works.

As for BitFunders fees, from our public F.A.Q. page to the thread for everyone's convenience...

Q: Who pays the trading fees?
A: Only the seller.

Q: What are the fees?
A: Fees range between between 1% and 0.5% based on your account tier. When logged in, YOUR current fee tier is listed under 'Settings'.
You might call this a high fee, but in reality, it is the same as 0.5%(or less) per buy and sell. You just don't have to pay the fee up front.
This is great for people who are mainly here to invest in assets which is what we promote. If you are a day trader, then you can get the fees down as low as 0.25% or possibly lower with permanent discount %'s.

Q: How of often does the fee tier reset?
A: Quarterly. This gives many people a good amount of time to build up.
We are even considering letting people carry over tier's in someway. This is just merely a consideration at this point, and not a promise.

Q: Are there any other fees?
A: Currently the only other fee is a 3btc listing fee for new assets. This is waived for orphaned GLBSE assets that are approved of.

[zapeta]

Hi DeaDTerra,

I recommend BitFunder, I recently relisted ABM there, just upload the AYML file and shareholders can claim their shares.

Greetz

I have been contacted by the BF owner,
I wanted to check what your opinions are off moving GSDPT to BitFunder?
//DeaDTerra

It seemed to me that the consensus of those few of us who posted would prefer BTC-TC.  But I don't really care if you want to put the asset on BitFunder, I'm was mostly just trying to avoid having to manage yet another account for my ex-GLBSE holdings.

[burnside]

I will second that in my opinion Ukyo is a reliable operator.  He hasn't been around as long as an operator, but he has the real-world creds.

I think which exchange comes down to a matter of preference, both BitFunder and BTC-TC have plans in place for avoiding GLBSE like disaster and obviously both have the core functionality of share trading in place.  I'd suggest trying a few trades on both, exploring the interfaces and options, etc.

Competition is a good thing.  Keeps everyone on their toes.  


Edit in italics.

[Ukyo]

I will second that in my opinion Ukyo is a reliable operator.  He hasn't been around as long, but he has the real-world creds.

I think which exchange comes down to a matter of preference, both BitFunder and BTC-TC have plans in place for avoiding GLBSE like disaster and obviously both have the core functionality of share trading in place.  I'd suggest trying a few trades on both, exploring the interfaces and options, etc.

Competition is a good thing.  Keeps everyone on their toes. 

Not exactly sure where I have not been around long for
I have been around the community for a good year and a half on IRC as I have mentioned before.
And if we are going by forum profiles, seems between us you are a bit younger. I did not see your nickname on Wot, but we can talk about fixing that in private on IRC.
However, I don't think any of that is relevant to any of this.

But I don't really care if you want to put the asset on BitFunder, I'm was mostly just trying to avoid having to manage yet another account for my ex-GLBSE holdings.

THAT is the first sound reasoning I have heard from anyone on the forums for a reason to pick an exchange!

I spoke to terra last night on skype, and we noticed that among the legitimate shareholders casting their votes on what to do with their shares there appeared to be realistic votes for both exchanges. He came up with a brilliant idea that would allow shareholders to use both and make everyone happy. Last I spoke to him, he was waiting to hear from Burnside on the matter. It seems like they may have already talked, or Burnside may already be in favor of such an arrangement.

I really believe there is no need for arguing over when, where, and why, when you can spend that time finding a solution instead! Terra has gone out of his
way to spend a lot of time to be able to provide some quality assets, with little to no thanks or reward and has so far gone above and beyond to come up with a solution for his shareholders that may cause him even more work, but is wanting to do it as it provides a solution to making everyone happy. In my conversations with him over the few days, he has proven to be one of the few people who can look at things from multiple points of view, and try to understand everyone's position and be fair. I have offered him my full faith and trust with my personal information, and anything else within reason should he desire because I have seen that he has proven to be trustworthy through the past, and has kept his word.

+10 DeaDTerra 

[burnside]

Not exactly sure where I have not been around long for
I have been around the community for a good year and a half on IRC as I have mentioned before.
And if we are going by forum profiles, seems between us you are a bit younger. I did not see your nickname on Wot, but we can talk about fixing that in private on IRC.
However, I don't think any of that is relevant to any of this.

Doh.  I apologize.  What was your previous forum profile?  (don't have to be public, PM me if willing.  I just didn't realize and now I'm curious.)

I'm not on WoT.  I may setup on it eventually, but I've never really did the research or understood it.  Pirate had a great WoT rating...

Cheers.

[Ukyo]

Doh.  I apologize.  What was your previous forum profile?  (don't have to be public, PM me if willing.  I just didn't realize and now I'm curious.)

I'm not on WoT.  I may setup on it eventually, but I've never really did the research or understood it.  Pirate had a great WoT rating...

Cheers.

Same profile I am using right now.
Date Registered:   July 20, 2011, 11:16:21 PM

And yes, Pirate did, and so do many legit people. Nothing is infallible, but something is better than nothing. 
I would be more than happy to help you get setup with WoT and help you establish some credibility on it.
Again, I think this is kind of irrelevant to this thread?
(Unless you are trying to somehow point out to users who is a more trustworthy exchange operator by age or WoT standing? I would like to think this is not the case.)
As I have stated in other threads, we can discuss stuff between us like this elsewhere and not in other peoples faces.

[burnside]

Doh.  I apologize.  What was your previous forum profile?  (don't have to be public, PM me if willing.  I just didn't realize and now I'm curious.)

I'm not on WoT.  I may setup on it eventually, but I've never really did the research or understood it.  Pirate had a great WoT rating...

Cheers.

Same profile I am using right now.
Date Registered:   July 20, 2011, 11:16:21 PM

And yes, Pirate did, and so do many legit people. Nothing is infallible, but something is better than nothing. 
I would be more than happy to help you get setup with WoT and help you establish some credibility on it.
Again, I think this is kind of irrelevant to this thread?
(Unless you are trying to somehow point out to users who is a more trustworthy exchange operator by age or WoT standing? I would like to think this is not the case.)
As I have stated in other threads, we can discuss stuff between us like this elsewhere and not in other peoples faces.

Threads go all over the place, it's nothing new.

There was no hidden meaning.

Appreciate the offer for WoT, may take you up on that!

Cheers.

[DeaDTerra]

An Email has been sent out to all the share holders
Please respond with the exchange off your choice, and guys please bare with me on this one as it may take a bit off time as I am doing all of this manually.
//DeaDTerra

[bitcoinbear]

An Email has been sent out to all the share holders
Please respond with the exchange off your choice, and guys please bare with me on this one as it may take a bit off time as I am doing all of this manually.
//DeaDTerra

So if I understand correctly, GSDPT will be available on both btct.co and bitfunder? This is pretty cool. It will be interesting to see how closely the prices track each other and how much volume there is on either exchange.

[8668]

What about dividends, will they be added to the balances of the trading site we decide upon?

[DeaDTerra]

What about dividends, will they be added to the balances of the trading site we decide upon?

Dividends will be paid out once all/a big majority of the shares has been claimed.
//DeaDTerra

[burger]

Bitfunder needs an WeExchange account if I'm correct, anyone has any experience with them?

[Monster Tent]

I have been contacted by the BF owner,
I wanted to check what your opinions are off moving GSDPT to BitFunder?
//DeaDTerra

With both platforms having highly questionable TOS (= basically no responsibility for anything) it all boils down to the question of who has the lowest fees.  

Are you kidding?
BitFunder barley has TOS:

   We (BitFunder) do not accept responsibility for anything.
    WARNING: Use at your own risk.
    You must agree to 1 and 2.

Lowest fees should never be the main reason. Usability, functionality and trustworthiness are way more important.
Bitfunder has no real TOS, no history and no Contact information.
BTC-TC is a registered company, owned by a well know member of the Bitcoin community and has way more advanced script than Bitfunder.
Just looking at the fees would be foolish.

The lower fees are the more likely there are to be scammers issuing securities.

[MPOE-PR]

Bitfunder needs an WeExchange account if I'm correct, anyone has any experience with them?

Graet's thing.

[dadj]

Bitfunder needs an WeExchange account if I'm correct, anyone has any experience with them?

Yes, I signed up about 6 months ago and done a few trades. It is run by Graet in Australia and Ukto in the United States. My experience so far has been good - faster bitcoins than MtGox (based in Australia).

[rini17]

An Email has been sent out to all the share holders
Please respond with the exchange off your choice, and guys please bare with me on this one as it may take a bit off time as I am doing all of this manually.
//DeaDTerra

So DeaDTerra, this means the option to exchange the passthrough shares to real S.DICE stock via coinbr.com was silently ignored, without any explanation? You did not even ask me what possible discount/benefits can coinbr provide for the users and just quickly gave in to these who screamed loudest or even offered bribes?
No problem with us, we have no intention to doing business in this typical bitcointalk way. Plus, it leaves us with free hands to provide a plan that will render most of these mpex passthrougs obsolete, should we find out something viable.

[EskimoBob]

It sure is painful to watch how this S.DICE turd slowly melts to a puddle of shit and there is nothing I can do to get out of it... because fkn James can not get his act together fast enough. FUUUUUUCCCCKKK 

James, you owe me 2 ales, not just one,  for all the pain and suffering you have caused me!