Bitcoin Forum
May 13, 2024, 01:18:20 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 [3]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Any work being done on decentralized fiat exchanges?  (Read 500 times)
d5000
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3906
Merit: 6263


Decentralization Maximalist


View Profile
August 08, 2018, 06:55:09 PM
 #41

Thank you for the detailed description. I have some questions/doubts and remarks about it:

-Have a single BTC address from which you can purchase cryptofiat. Initially the price would be set and known throughout the network based on a namecoin list of exchange addresses (more on that in a bit).
-The addresses that purchase the cryptofiat would be known by the network and the amount they purchased could be sent from them in colored coins, with 1 satoshi = 1 unit of the currency, to open a channel on a cryptofiat Lightning Network.
So, if I understand right:
- There is one single issuer of the cryptofiat
- Distribution is only via LN (which makes sense, due to the low amounts of "real" BTC to be expected if 1 sat = 1 unit, e.g. 1 cent), the purchasers having to open a channel to the issuer.

Question: Wouldn't the issuer need a lot of trust for the price of e.g. 1 satoshi = 1 cent to be accepted? From my perspective, the model sounds similar to Tether at first, and he would probably need real fiat (e.g. on a bank account with regular audits ...) to back his cryptofiat, otherwise nobody would buy it.

Quote
-Bisq can then be used to convert fiat to cryptofiat. User can then open a Lightning channel to receive their colored coins.
Bisq would need to become LN-compatible for that to work, but I guess you know that.

Quote
Those that buy cryptofiat with bitcoins can start to have some input on the namecoin list of exchanges used (some sort of voting mechanism based on amount purchased and time passed).
I don't understand the concept of the "namecoin list of exchanges" and the voting mechanism. Are there multiple (centralized) exchanges involved? I thought there was initially one exchange. What do the users vote, the price or the exchange list?

Quote
Eventually, the goal would be to set the price to the publicly known price of the last trade in the decentralized swap. But initially the volume would be too low to do so. But when that is triggered it becomes truly decentralized and unstoppable.
Unfortunately, I don't think that will work, or I don't understand the mechanism. You are saying that a single purchase of the cryptofiat token with Bitcoin will set the price (potentially forever?)? What is if Bitcoin's price fluctuates heavily, how would the price be "rebalanced"? What if the token becomes traded at other platforms, without the fixed price, and manipulated to the upside or to the downside (something what has happened to the Steem Dollar, for example ...)?

Or are you referring to the "cryptofiat" price measured in fiat? While that would solve the first problem, the second problem (trading at other platforms) would persist. There would still be a "backing" (fiat funds controlled by the issuer) needed to establish trust on the cryptofiat token.

From your explanation, I don't see many differences to Tether - the price is set artificially, and is meant to stay at that price.

I think there is something important missing in your explanation, or something I didn't understand still, so if you want, please elaborate on that.

█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
e
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█████████████
████████████▄███
██▐███████▄█████▀
█████████▄████▀
███▐████▄███▀
████▐██████▀
█████▀█████
███████████▄
████████████▄
██▄█████▀█████▄
▄█████████▀█████▀
███████████▀██▀
████▀█████████
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
c.h.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄██████▄▄▄
█████████████▄▄
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
███░░█████████
███▌▐█████████
█████████████
███████████▀
██████████▀
████████▀
▀██▀▀
1715563100
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715563100

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715563100
Reply with quote  #2

1715563100
Report to moderator
1715563100
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715563100

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715563100
Reply with quote  #2

1715563100
Report to moderator
1715563100
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1715563100

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1715563100
Reply with quote  #2

1715563100
Report to moderator
Bitcoin mining is now a specialized and very risky industry, just like gold mining. Amateur miners are unlikely to make much money, and may even lose money. Bitcoin is much more than just mining, though!
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
Elwar (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386


Viva Ut Vivas


View Profile WWW
August 08, 2018, 07:57:31 PM
 #42

So, if I understand right:
- There is one single issuer of the cryptofiat
- Distribution is only via LN (which makes sense, due to the low amounts of "real" BTC to be expected if 1 sat = 1 unit, e.g. 1 cent), the purchasers having to open a channel to the issuer.

Question: Wouldn't the issuer need a lot of trust for the price of e.g. 1 satoshi = 1 cent to be accepted? From my perspective, the model sounds similar to Tether at first, and he would probably need real fiat (e.g. on a bank account with regular audits ...) to back his cryptofiat, otherwise nobody would buy it.

There's not so much an issuer of the cryptofiat as basically anyone sending BTC to that single address is now able to "issue" tokens from their own address (up to the amount they "purchased"). The address could even be a burn address like 1XXXXXXXX... But I have been kicking around the idea that the address is used to fund further development or even buy back cryptofiat if the market deems it necessary. Not a single person but likely a decentralized organization of some sort with multi-sig access to the address.

The control of that address could disappear (keys lost, people controlling it die off, etc.) and the system would still continue on with no disruption.

Bisq would need to become LN-compatible for that to work, but I guess you know that.

I use bisq as reference but it would likely be a modified version so a user does not necessarily need to download any software (make it web based). While still being able to download software and avoid the middle man.

Quote
I don't understand the concept of the "namecoin list of exchanges" and the voting mechanism. Are there multiple (centralized) exchanges involved? I thought there was initially one exchange. What do the users vote, the price or the exchange list?

This part is a bit unhashed but I believe that it will need to start small and grow (likely starting in a small country with few or no exchanges). It will start as a single server but anyone who downloads the software and wants to run their own server (exchange) can also do so. The exchange could charge fees or advertise or whatever they need to make money which allows them to enhance the user experience and advertise to draw more people in. With more volume on the exchanges they're all using the p2p in the background. It's just that the user doesn't know (or shouldn't even care).

The point of the namecoin list of exchanges is so that initially the price can be set to a specific formula (ie. take the volume from Bitstamp, Bitfinex, GDAX, etc. combine and divide to get the price). The price will need to be known by everyone so that the cryptofiat can be the price of the underlying currency while still using satoshis (ie. when someone sends BTC to the initial address at $7k/BTC and 1 satoshi = $1, then everyone in the network knows that the person can issue 7k satoshis and they can ignore any further satoshis sent from that address by consensus.

Since there will be such low volume initially, the price on the decentralized exchange will be too easily manipulated.

But you can't just have a single issuer deciding the price to be used. So initially it will be centralized, then grow more decentralized over time. Then at a trigger point the price is based on the price on the decentralized exchange (due to high enough volume). I figure the "issuers" should be given the ability to determine the price formula that is used.

Quote
Unfortunately, I don't think that will work, or I don't understand the mechanism. You are saying that a single purchase of the cryptofiat token with Bitcoin will set the price (potentially forever?)? What is if Bitcoin's price fluctuates heavily, how would the price be "rebalanced"? What if the token becomes traded at other platforms, without the fixed price, and manipulated to the upside or to the downside (something what has happened to the Steem Dollar, for example ...)?

Or are you referring to the "cryptofiat" price measured in fiat? While that would solve the first problem, the second problem (trading at other platforms) would persist. There would still be a "backing" (fiat funds controlled by the issuer) needed to establish trust on the cryptofiat token.

From your explanation, I don't see many differences to Tether - the price is set artificially, and is meant to stay at that price.

I think there is something important missing in your explanation, or something I didn't understand still, so if you want, please elaborate on that.

It certainly is like a decentralized Tether. The main problem with Tether is that it's run by a single company. They have(had) a bank account. Disruption of that single company/account can bring it all crumbling down.

The Bitcoin price can (will) fluctuate no problem. When issuer X buys at $7k they get 7k satoshis. If the price jumps to $10k when issuer Y buys then they can issue 10k satoshis.

Trade on other platforms is more than welcome. If it is known that 1 satoshi = $1 then not only can it just be used for exchange, it can be used in commerce. Merchants can start accepting cryptofiat alongside regular fiat. My ultimate dream would be that cryptofiat becomes so much easier to use than regular fiat that nobody uses regular fiat anymore. Banks become useless and eventually when BTC price reaches the point where 1 satoshi = $1, people will now just use their cryptofiat as bitcoins. Essentially, bitcoin has now replaced a government currency.

Trust is certainly essential. I believe that if a single exchange is run like this for a while and reaches high enough volume then it will sort of prove itself. Initially it will be centralized and controlled with the mechanisms built in to grow more decentralized over time to the point where it is fully decentralized. People already trust that when they send money to an exchange that the numbers in their database correlate to their money. A lot less trust than I would give but these exchanges are trading hundreds of millions each day so obviously some people trust these database entries.

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
d5000
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3906
Merit: 6263


Decentralization Maximalist


View Profile
August 08, 2018, 10:32:19 PM
 #43

There's not so much an issuer of the cryptofiat as basically anyone sending BTC to that single address is now able to "issue" tokens from their own address (up to the amount they "purchased").
Ah, ok, I misunderstood. I thought the issuer would sell his BTC on this address for 1 sat/1 cent, which would be exactly like Tether Wink

Quote

The point of the namecoin list of exchanges is so that initially the price can be set to a specific formula (ie. take the volume from Bitstamp, Bitfinex, GDAX, etc. combine and divide to get the price). The price will need to be known by everyone so that the cryptofiat can be the price of the underlying currency while still using satoshis (ie. when someone sends BTC to the initial address at $7k/BTC and 1 satoshi = $1, then everyone in the network knows that the person can issue 7k satoshis and they can ignore any further satoshis sent from that address by consensus.
Quote
Then at a trigger point the price is based on the price on the decentralized exchange (due to high enough volume). I figure the "issuers" should be given the ability to determine the price formula that is used.

So let me resume the model, as I understand it now:
- everybody has the right to issue currency tokens (I'll call them CFIAT for now) based on the current price, taken from the "namecoin list of exchanges", according to the satoshis he sent to the issuance address. The software would have then to prove that  the issuer has issued the quantity of currency corresponding to the valid price of the moment of issuance - otherwise his tokens wouldn't be valid.
- In parallel, a decentralized exchange is built up, where people can trade BTC/CFIAT via LN atomic swaps, and CFIAT/FIAT pairs via a Bisq-like protocol using LN.
- Once the decentralized exchange has enough volume, a "trigger" determines that the "list of exchanges" is replaced by a decentralized price finding mechanism.

I think I understand now: You hope that when the price is "liberated", the token is already so popular that there is practically no volatility anymore with respect to fiat.

For example, there could be a market like I proposed here for Bitcoin, where merchants could "guarantee" a price in "cryptofiat" for a certain time e.g. 24 hours or a week. Knowing that, if there are price swings to the downside (which is the biggest risk), arbitrators could profit buying the products with "cheap coins". And there could be also emerge exchangers which always would back the token with 1 CFIATUSD=1USD for example.

Still there is the problem that someone that wants to manipulate the price and has enough Bitcoins or cryptofiat tokens can do it. Not even the elaborated "stablecoin" models like BitUSD or Dai are entirely safe from this kind of attack. But it may work if there are enough backing mechanisms in place like those I mentioned in the last paragraph.

Looks definitively like an interesting concept, I have to think about other possible problems.

█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
e
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█████████████
████████████▄███
██▐███████▄█████▀
█████████▄████▀
███▐████▄███▀
████▐██████▀
█████▀█████
███████████▄
████████████▄
██▄█████▀█████▄
▄█████████▀█████▀
███████████▀██▀
████▀█████████
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
c.h.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄██████▄▄▄
█████████████▄▄
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
███████████████
███░░█████████
███▌▐█████████
█████████████
███████████▀
██████████▀
████████▀
▀██▀▀
Elwar (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386


Viva Ut Vivas


View Profile WWW
August 08, 2018, 10:55:36 PM
 #44

There's not so much an issuer of the cryptofiat as basically anyone sending BTC to that single address is now able to "issue" tokens from their own address (up to the amount they "purchased").
Ah, ok, I misunderstood. I thought the issuer would sell his BTC on this address for 1 sat/1 cent, which would be exactly like Tether Wink

Quote

The point of the namecoin list of exchanges is so that initially the price can be set to a specific formula (ie. take the volume from Bitstamp, Bitfinex, GDAX, etc. combine and divide to get the price). The price will need to be known by everyone so that the cryptofiat can be the price of the underlying currency while still using satoshis (ie. when someone sends BTC to the initial address at $7k/BTC and 1 satoshi = $1, then everyone in the network knows that the person can issue 7k satoshis and they can ignore any further satoshis sent from that address by consensus.
Quote
Then at a trigger point the price is based on the price on the decentralized exchange (due to high enough volume). I figure the "issuers" should be given the ability to determine the price formula that is used.

So let me resume the model, as I understand it now:
- everybody has the right to issue currency tokens (I'll call them CFIAT for now) based on the current price, taken from the "namecoin list of exchanges", according to the satoshis he sent to the issuance address. The software would have then to prove that  the issuer has issued the quantity of currency corresponding to the valid price of the moment of issuance - otherwise his tokens wouldn't be valid.
- In parallel, a decentralized exchange is built up, where people can trade BTC/CFIAT via LN atomic swaps, and CFIAT/FIAT pairs via a Bisq-like protocol using LN.
- Once the decentralized exchange has enough volume, a "trigger" determines that the "list of exchanges" is replaced by a decentralized price finding mechanism.

I think I understand now: You hope that when the price is "liberated", the token is already so popular that there is practically no volatility anymore with respect to fiat.

For example, there could be a market like I proposed here for Bitcoin, where merchants could "guarantee" a price in "cryptofiat" for a certain time e.g. 24 hours or a week. Knowing that, if there are price swings to the downside (which is the biggest risk), arbitrators could profit buying the products with "cheap coins". And there could be also emerge exchangers which always would back the token with 1 CFIATUSD=1USD for example.

Still there is the problem that someone that wants to manipulate the price and has enough Bitcoins or cryptofiat tokens can do it. Not even the elaborated "stablecoin" models like BitUSD or Dai are entirely safe from this kind of attack. But it may work if there are enough backing mechanisms in place like those I mentioned in the last paragraph.

Looks definitively like an interesting concept, I have to think about other possible problems.

Yep. I think you got it down. I think the trigger would be something like "if volume on the decentralized exchange is higher than the volume of the largest exchange (or all of them combined), then set price to the swap price on the dex". I think if the dex is one of the largest exchanges, the difficulty to manipulate the underlying value would be pretty high.

And I do believe the address that is filled with BTC will need to play a large role in maintaining stability but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to do it programatically without needing to go through Rootstock or ETH. Perhaps some sort of game theory which incentivizes the org in charge of the receiving address to maintain stability (like they charge a percentage above the price, and buy back at a percentage that it drops...thus constantly requiring the new issuance of tokens at the current price.

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
Pages: « 1 2 [3]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!