Bitcoin Forum
September 22, 2021, 09:52:47 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 22.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: A strong caution to anyone considering buying Pirate obligations  (Read 2937 times)
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1011


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 01:41:07 AM
Last edit: August 22, 2012, 01:52:45 AM by JoelKatz
 #1

Please take this caution seriously. I don't know for a fact that this is happening, but there's a very serious risk associated with buying Pirate debt that is not obvious. The debt you are buying may not actually exist even if you confirmed it.

1) John Smith comes to you and says, "Pirate owes me 10,000 BTC. Would you like to buy this obligation for 5,400 BTC?"

2) You confirm that this obligation exists with Pirate.

3) You think Pirate might pay back, and it seems like a reasonably good risk, so you buy it.

4) But John Smith may actually *be* Pirate and the 10,000 BTC may never have been deposited at all.

5) Pirate just got 5,400 BTC for an obligation that never actually existed and that he never intends to pay back.

I would strongly urge people *not* to buy any Pirate obligations. It's not just that Pirate might default, it's that selling the obligations may be an engineered part of a default. As I've argued elsewhere, this is one of the best explanations for why Pirate would have bought himself a week or so to make payouts. This is all time he can sell non-existing obligations for real money.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
1632347567
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1632347567

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1632347567
Reply with quote  #2

1632347567
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1632347567
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1632347567

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1632347567
Reply with quote  #2

1632347567
Report to moderator
1632347567
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1632347567

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1632347567
Reply with quote  #2

1632347567
Report to moderator
imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 500

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 04:35:40 AM
 #2

Please take this caution seriously. I don't know for a fact that this is happening, but there's a very serious risk associated with buying Pirate debt that is not obvious. The debt you are buying may not actually exist even if you confirmed it.

1) John Smith comes to you and says, "Pirate owes me 10,000 BTC. Would you like to buy this obligation for 5,400 BTC?"

2) You confirm that this obligation exists with Pirate.

3) You think Pirate might pay back, and it seems like a reasonably good risk, so you buy it.

4) But John Smith may actually *be* Pirate and the 10,000 BTC may never have been deposited at all.

5) Pirate just got 5,400 BTC for an obligation that never actually existed and that he never intends to pay back.

I would strongly urge people *not* to buy any Pirate obligations. It's not just that Pirate might default, it's that selling the obligations may be an engineered part of a default. As I've argued elsewhere, this is one of the best explanations for why Pirate would have bought himself a week or so to make payouts. This is all time he can sell non-existing obligations for real money.


Completely ignoring that the counter-party might have a long, well established identity that doesn't match anything to do with pirate.  Seriously, thanks for the PSA, but let's not spread paranoia.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
Oinsane1
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0



View Profile
August 22, 2012, 06:33:24 AM
 #3

there are lots o money making opportunities if you are the man on the switch  of a closing venture...

JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1011


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 07:21:31 AM
 #4

Completely ignoring that the counter-party might have a long, well established identity that doesn't match anything to do with pirate.
In that case, you would know that this isn't an issue in that specific transaction. But you might still be basing the going rate on the market's estimation of a Pirate default, an estimation that could be contaminated by bogus transactions.

Quote
Seriously, thanks for the PSA, but let's not spread paranoia.
You're welcome.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
bitcoinBull
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 826
Merit: 1001


rippleFanatic


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 07:51:28 AM
 #5

The only thing dumber than this is buying insurance or default bets (other than against MNW, who does not request that you deposit first).

Oh look, we have a winner. Rarity buying BitcoinMax exposure for his/her "spiritual group". I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I have no special insider information.  I handle all my financial transactions with clarity of mind by performing a non-reactive analytical inspection of all available facts.  I have no doubt these transactions will prove fruitful for me.

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574
Merit: 500

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 01:14:14 PM
 #6

In that case, you would know that this isn't an issue in that specific transaction. But you might still be basing the going rate on the market's estimation of a Pirate default, an estimation that could be contaminated by bogus transactions.

Using what other people are doing as to their debt sales is rather idiotic.  This market has already proven (long before btcst) that it doesn't always act rationally/logically.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1011


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 01:39:12 PM
 #7

Using what other people are doing as to their debt sales is rather idiotic.  This market has already proven (long before btcst) that it doesn't always act rationally/logically.
I agree. That's why I'm warning people to exercise extreme caution if they do that. There is not just the risk of irrational actors but in this case, there's a risk of rational actors who acquired the asset for free and know that it is worthless.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
CoinDiver
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 778
Merit: 1002


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 01:51:30 PM
 #8

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

http://mises.org/daily/3229
BTC:1PEyEKyVZgUvV4moXvCD5rQN21QETGPpLc
Gyrsur
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2772
Merit: 1499


Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 1 of 206


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 01:54:54 PM
 #9

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

if MNW will pay out, yes.

I know that I know nothing. And therefore I know more than those who don't know that they know nothing.
Clark Moody's Bitcoin Dashboard
gene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 02:21:57 PM
 #10

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

if MNW will pay out, yes.

Indeed. He seems a bit... unwell.

*processing payment* *error 404 : funds not found*
Do you want to complain on the forum just to fall for another scam a few days later?
| YES       |        YES |
bitcoinBull
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 826
Merit: 1001


rippleFanatic


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 02:33:53 PM
 #11

Using what other people are doing as to their debt sales is rather idiotic.  This market has already proven (long before btcst) that it doesn't always act rationally/logically.
I agree. That's why I'm warning people to exercise extreme caution if they do that. There is not just the risk of irrational actors but in this case, there's a risk of rational actors who acquired the asset for free and know that it is worthless.

There's no difference in any of the cases. From the beginning, pirate was a rational actor peddling a 7%/wk generating "asset" that he knew was worthless. All the GLBSE bonds are created for free by the sellers. etc etc

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
bitcoinBull
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 826
Merit: 1001


rippleFanatic


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 02:36:20 PM
 #12

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1011


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 02:37:35 PM
 #13

There's no difference in any of the cases. From the beginning, pirate was a rational actor peddling a 7%/wk generating "asset" that he knew was worthless. All the GLBSE bonds are created for free by the sellers. etc etc
I disagree. The possibility that Pirate might be *selling* Pirate obligations is very, very different from every other case. Only Pirate (or someone conspiring with him) could sell an obligation that he acquired at zero cost and knew for sure was worthless.


I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
EuSouBitcoin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 485
Merit: 251


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 02:40:09 PM
 #14

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_party_risk#Counterparty_risk

You can't win if you don't play. But you can't play if you lose all your chips. First I found bitcoin (BTC). Then I found something better, Monero (XMR). See GetMonero.org
JoelKatz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1011


Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 02:41:25 PM
 #15

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.
You can if you can pay less than 50% for Pirate debt. Say you buy 100 BTC of pirate debt for 40 BTC. You place a 40 BTC with Matthew:

1) Pirate defaults. Matthew pays you 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You break even.

2) Pirate pays you 100 BTC. You pay Matthew 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You made 20 BTC.

Apparently, some Pirate debt is going for less than 50% of face. So either nobody's doing this or the difference between 50% and the going rate is the chance Matthew will default.



I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
1Joe1Katzci1rFcsr9HH7SLuHVnDy2aihZ BM-NBM3FRExVJSJJamV9ccgyWvQfratUHgN
Gyrsur
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2772
Merit: 1499


Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 1 of 206


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 02:49:04 PM
 #16

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.
You can if you can pay less than 50% for Pirate debt. Say you buy 100 BTC of pirate debt for 40 BTC. You place a 40 BTC with Matthew:

1) Pirate defaults. Matthew pays you 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You break even.

2) Pirate pays you 100 BTC. You pay Matthew 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You made 20 BTC.

Apparently, some Pirate debt is going for less than 50% of face. So either nobody's doing this or the difference between 50% and the going rate is the chance Matthew will default.




where is the hedge for "MNW will not pay if he has to pay"?

EDIT: or should I open a thread/bet for this? at the end someone has to pay the bill in every case!

I know that I know nothing. And therefore I know more than those who don't know that they know nothing.
Clark Moody's Bitcoin Dashboard
SgtSpike
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386
Merit: 1003



View Profile
August 22, 2012, 03:32:16 PM
 #17

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.
You can if you can pay less than 50% for Pirate debt. Say you buy 100 BTC of pirate debt for 40 BTC. You place a 40 BTC with Matthew:

1) Pirate defaults. Matthew pays you 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You break even.

2) Pirate pays you 100 BTC. You pay Matthew 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You made 20 BTC.

Apparently, some Pirate debt is going for less than 50% of face. So either nobody's doing this or the difference between 50% and the going rate is the chance Matthew will default.




where is the hedge for "MNW will not pay if he has to pay"?

EDIT: or should I open a thread/bet for this? at the end someone has to pay the bill in every case!
Go for it - I'll bet that he pays if he has to pay!
Gyrsur
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2772
Merit: 1499


Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 1 of 206


View Profile WWW
August 22, 2012, 03:35:33 PM
 #18

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.
You can if you can pay less than 50% for Pirate debt. Say you buy 100 BTC of pirate debt for 40 BTC. You place a 40 BTC with Matthew:

1) Pirate defaults. Matthew pays you 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You break even.

2) Pirate pays you 100 BTC. You pay Matthew 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You made 20 BTC.

Apparently, some Pirate debt is going for less than 50% of face. So either nobody's doing this or the difference between 50% and the going rate is the chance Matthew will default.




where is the hedge for "MNW will not pay if he has to pay"?

EDIT: or should I open a thread/bet for this? at the end someone has to pay the bill in every case!
Go for it - I'll bet that he pays if he has to pay!

was hypothetical and should show that at the end of the chain must be the fool.

EDIT: your offer was not serious? or was it? we should NOT invite credit default swaps into bitcoin world! this is what I'm trying to say.

I know that I know nothing. And therefore I know more than those who don't know that they know nothing.
Clark Moody's Bitcoin Dashboard
conspirosphere.tk
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064


Bitcoin is antisemitic


View Profile
August 22, 2012, 03:46:04 PM
 #19

EDIT: or should I open a thread/bet for this? at the end someone has to pay the bill in every case!
Go for it - I'll bet that he pays if he has to pay!

LOL! I bet that someone will do it soon. This castle of bets reminds me of the Quadrillion Derivatives Death Star.

BTW: in the examples above you do not consider cumulating interests, which will surpass 21 millions if we continue like this for a while.
SgtSpike
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386
Merit: 1003



View Profile
August 22, 2012, 03:48:01 PM
 #20

Why not buy someones debt, then bet the same amount you paid against Matthew? Worst case, you get your money back. Best case, Pirate pays. Can't lose.

And you can't win either, because if the hedges are equal then you're neutral. so why bother.
You can if you can pay less than 50% for Pirate debt. Say you buy 100 BTC of pirate debt for 40 BTC. You place a 40 BTC with Matthew:

1) Pirate defaults. Matthew pays you 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You break even.

2) Pirate pays you 100 BTC. You pay Matthew 40 BTC. You paid 40 BTC for the debt. You made 20 BTC.

Apparently, some Pirate debt is going for less than 50% of face. So either nobody's doing this or the difference between 50% and the going rate is the chance Matthew will default.




where is the hedge for "MNW will not pay if he has to pay"?

EDIT: or should I open a thread/bet for this? at the end someone has to pay the bill in every case!
Go for it - I'll bet that he pays if he has to pay!

was hypothetical and should show that at the end of the chain must be the fool.

EDIT: your offer was not serious? or was it? we should NOT invite credit default swaps into bitcoin world! this is what I'm trying to say.
My offer is 100% serious, as I am 100% certain Matthew will pay out if required.
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!