As A Dog Returneth To His Vomit - Quickseller Reloaded

[TerminatorXL]

Ok, what is your argument then? I keep making points and you claim you never stated otherwise, so what are your points so I can adress them?

I'm sorry, did you bother reading the thread? It's, frankly, insulting to have to repeat myself in every post.

Its a bad analogy, you can't compare killing someone to making alt accounts.

It's structurally analogous, I'm good with it.

There we go, you have a chip on your shoulder about Quickseller, ok.

Please see the topic of this thread. Quickseller makes a great poster boy for prohibiting dealing in forum accounts, hence I use him as an example of how this shit works out in practice. Not sure why this should be surprising.

While you state it as fact, who said that I ban accounts?

Assumed accounts get banned, am I wrong? By "you" i meant "you, the forum staff."

Let alone for unknown transgressions. Yep there aren't steadfast rules, because then people could abuse loopholes. Rather than unforgiving rules, we have a group of people decide on bans and ample warnings are given. Common sense and well thought out policies are what the forum runs by.

Having no clearly defined rules means no one is sure if what he's doing is wrong - sort of how most tyrannical states operate. An oligarch making up rules as they go along breeds general disease and criminality, that should be self-evident.
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[Quickseller]

I have a question:

If account trading is banned (and assuming this ban could be enforced), then you could not sell your account.

If a major reason why people sell their accounts is because they need money to cover some expense AND

If a major reason why many people scam is because they need money (some people are just scumbags and scam because they are too lazy to work for themselves) THEN

If account trading is banned, wouldn't we see an increase in the number of scams and scam attempts? Or is my logic somehow flawed?

[TerminatorXL]

I've already addressed why having multiple accounts isn't against the rules, but I'm waiting for you to address specific points that I can then address since I'm not allowed to make examples or address anything that you haven't specifically said.

Ok, hypothetically, we forbid having multiple accounts. What happens then? People then sell accounts through IRC, Ebay, ecrypted messages via PM, etc and the practice continues. We can't really disuade people from selling accounts, not in any reasonable manner.

Of course you can dissuade people from buying and selling accounts. Just like laws against murder dissuade people from killing.
I hope you're not suggesting that disallowing accounts to be sold right here, as frictionlessly and conveniently as possible, would encourage account sales and increase the number of accounts bought and sold?

Saying a rule is retarded but not explaining why you think so, even though I've given multiple valid reasons for why it isn't retarded isn't really helping. I could explain very throughly why you can't draw comparisons between murder and account creation, but I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll wait for you to ask.

Before we go on, would you be for prohibiting buying & selling of forum accounts if doing so would cut the number of these accounts by, oh, 75%? Hypothetically?

@Quickseller/ACCTSeller: Your logic isn't just flawed, it's not even wrong

[Quickseller]

Which point would you refute? The fact that people sell their accounts because they need money? That people scam because they need money? Or that when people have one way to get money cut off they will naturally try another way to get money?

[SaltySpitoon]

Of course you can dissuade people from buying and selling accounts. Just like laws against murder dissuade people from killing.
I hope you're not suggesting that disallowing accounts to be sold right here, as frictionlessly and conveniently as possible, would encourage account sales and increase the number of accounts bought and sold?

Before we go on, would you be for prohibiting buying & selling of forum accounts if doing so would cut the number of these accounts by, oh, 75%? Hypothetically?

Laws that can be enforced, like laws against murders that yield punishment dissuade people from killing. We could ban people that we catch, which would be a mild inconvience for them, then they just create another account and try not to get caught when they start selling accounts again.

I'm not sure if 75% would be enough. I'm not sure if 99% would be enough. As we have agreed, its hard to point out a single case where a purchased trusted account has been used to scam. All it would take is 1 person to sell a trusted account against the forum rules, people convinced that its the original owner because account selling isn't allowed get scammed, and we then have our case. The fact that the policy has been in place for 5 years now, and we are still talking hypotheticals with regards to sold accounts being used to scam says something.

There is a pretty simple remedy, just use PGP or sign a message from a Bitcoin address that is known to be held by the original owner of the account. But again, account selling isn't banned not just for scam prevention reasons, its not banned for pseudonymity's sake. This forum is about conversation and discussion of technology over the marketplace section. The marketplace is a secondary concern, rules wont change that effect the forum's primary objective to help better a secondary feature. Imagine if Gavin Andresen wanted to get into a fight with some people over some political issue. If he did that from his Gavin Andresen account, that could negatively effect other work he is doing. Account selling isn't banned

A) Because it would be unenforcable
B) There are places where having multiple accounts allows people to speak their mind without fear of backlash from others.

[onewiseguy]

>how do you know if someone 'owns' more than one forum account
The same way I'd know the identity of any other scammer - he slips up & gets owned.
Quickseller, for instance, was forced to admit to controlling ACCTSeller account. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

I am not a scammer, nor did I slip up. I was not forced to admit anything.

You are trolling.

Of course you were forced to admit it. Shall I drag up the post where you, posting under ACCTSeller, refuse to admit to being a sock, and demand me to prove it?
Getting a bit old

Why don't you point to the post where I was forced to admit them both belonging to me? The fact that I was not previously willing to publicly admit to both accounts being mine means nothing.

SO your alt is acctseller? priceless

[onewiseguy]

>how do you know if someone 'owns' more than one forum account
The same way I'd know the identity of any other scammer - he slips up & gets owned.
Quickseller, for instance, was forced to admit to controlling ACCTSeller account. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

I am not a scammer, nor did I slip up. I was not forced to admit anything.

You are trolling.

Of course you were forced to admit it. Shall I drag up the post where you, posting under ACCTSeller, refuse to admit to being a sock, and demand me to prove it?
Getting a bit old

waiting for this post please.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]I'm not sure if 99% would be enough.

That sorta makes enforceability a non-issue then. Can't think of a single law that stops 100% of the thing it was created to prevent, not even laws against killing.

As we have agreed, its hard to point out a single case where a purchased trusted account has been used to scam. All it would take is 1 person to sell a trusted account against the forum rules, people convinced that its the original owner because account selling isn't allowed get scammed, and we then have our case.

What makes you focus on the grand scam so much, and why have you ignored a rather plausible case I've mentioned, TAT (who, BTW, was logged in the last time i checked)?
I'm not saying trusted accounts are sold to do royal scams, they're far more useful as TAT, for instance - sort of above-board bureaucrat lending his reputation to a scam which, upon completion, he can't be tied to.
But that's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about accounts being farmed and sold to commit petty crime, and to make money from pay-to-spam advertising.
And the whole bitcointalk mod crew getting brought on board because poor & easier to corrupt than a banana republic government clerk.
Forgive me if this sounds insulting, but you're arguing for something that's so obviously wrong on so many levels, I'm a bit flabbergasted.

There is a pretty simple remedy, just use PGP or sign a message from a Bitcoin address that is known to be held by the original owner of the account. But again, account selling isn't banned not just for scam prevention reasons, its not banned for pseudonymity's sake. This forum is about conversation and discussion of technology over the marketplace section. The marketplace is a secondary concern, rules wont change that effect the forum's primary objective to help better a secondary feature. Imagine if Gavin Andersen wanted to get into a fight with some people over some political issue. If he did that from his Gavin Andersen account, that could negatively effect other work he is doing. Account selling isn't banned

The "we need to allow account selling to allow pseudonymity" is absurd in more ways than one.
This account, for instance, was not bought. Wanna guess how I got it? That's right, I made a new one. You think Gavin could figure something like that out? Or do you suppose he's gonna log in to digital goods section of this forum, and start haggling with some scumbag dealer?

I mean, seriously?

And

A) Because it would be unenforcable
B) There are places where having multiple accounts allows people to speak their mind without fear of backlash from others.

You repeating yourself, in ever-tightening sequences. Please scroll up.

[...]
Of course you were forced to admit it. Shall I drag up the post where you, posting under ACCTSeller, refuse to admit to being a sock, and demand me to prove it?
Getting a bit old

waiting for this post please.

This: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1034655.0

[SaltySpitoon]

You don't seem to really get it. Account selling is unenforceable, that is a matter of fact. You can stop trying to relate it to murder because that is completely different. A better analogy would be between banning account selling and the war on drugs (but we don't have police officers). Trying to enforce something that you can't causes additional issues which in this case are worse than the act of account selling.

My mention of pseudonmity is why alternate accounts are allowed, and as long as alternate accounts are allowed, you can't stop account selling. Pay to spam advertising is another issue entirely, and as I've said two or three times now, something that is being worked on.

My focus on the grand scam, is because that is the only downside to account selling. Not being able to verify that the person you are trading with is the person you are trading with, which can be remedied by use of PGP or a little caution. TAT's last post being strange does not prove that account selling had anything to do with it. My point being that in five years account selling has been a non issue, so why make it one?

I sometimes summarize my points because I'm used to people not reading them. Sue me  

[TerminatorXL]

>Account selling is unenforceable, that is a matter of fact.
Account selling right on this forum is an embarrassment & takes away whatever vestige of credibility this forum has.
It's like inviting pickpockets to stay in your living room & letting them shit on your carpet while screwing your daughter, all because you've decided that petty crime is "unenforceable."

It's unenforceable only if you suck at your job. But you don't even want to enforce it - you admitted you wouldn't be happy with 99% reduction, so why harp on enforcibility?

>My focus on the grand scam, is because that is the only downside to account selling.
You're clearly trying to provoke an insult from me, but I take pride in my patience. Allow me to suggest you reread my replies until you  learn of the other downsides of account selling.

>My point being that in five years account selling has been a non issue, so why make it one?
Because now most of auctions/digital goods are frickin' bitcointalk accounts. Shit's never a problem until it is.

[TerminatorXL]

Which point would you refute? The fact that people sell their accounts because they need money? That people scam because they need money? Or that when people have one way to get money cut off they will naturally try another way to get money?

>The fact that people sell their accounts because they need money?
People who sell their accounts for money are too stupid to scam. I mean, come on, a year's wort of posting for a couple of hundred bucks, tops?
They're no more of a threat than a leprosied beggar. Repulsive? Yes. Gagworty? For sure. Potential dangerous scammers? Lol.

>That people scam because they need money?
People scam for the same reason dogs lick their balls - because they can.

>Or that when people have one way to get money cut off they will naturally try another way to get money?
Yeah, and thwarted rapists would try to rape again, and thwarted thieves would try to steal. None of that implies that I should invite them to rape ME or steal from ME tho.

It's a big would out there, with plenty of rapables and stealables. Not gonna make bitcointalk the low-hanging fruit for second-rate crooks, let 'em get out & get some exercise.

[SaltySpitoon]

>Account selling is unenforceable, that is a matter of fact.
Account selling right on this forum is an embarrassment & takes away whatever vestige of credibility this forum has.
It's like inviting pickpockets to stay in your living room & letting them shit on your carpet while screwing your daughter, all because you've decided that petty crime is "unenforceable."

It's unenforceable only if you suck at your job. But you don't even want to enforce it - you admitted you wouldn't be happy with 99% reduction, so why harp on enforcibility?

>My focus on the grand scam, is because that is the only downside to account selling.
You're clearly trying to provoke an insult from me, but I take pride in my patience. Allow me to suggest you reread my replies until you  learn of the other downsides of account selling.

>My point being that in five years account selling has been a non issue, so why make it one?
Because now most of auctions/digital goods are frickin' bitcointalk accounts. Shit's never a problem until it is.

Don't worry, this is just as time consuming for me. I've thought about the downsides of account selling for about 3 years now, this isn't a new topic and you aren't blowing my mind with your arguments. You keep trying to compare account selling to crimes and using that as your points, which is 100% completely wrong. Would the forums ban account selling if it was enforcable (which it is not) I dont know, maybe. However we aren't in that position, so for the time being Account Selling is Legal. we have already addressed the downsides as non issues, and you try to justify your points by drawing unequivical parallels between real world crimes that harm people, murder, theft, damage of property, and rape, to selling someone's account. This conversation isn't going anywhere unless you point out Exactly what you percieve as embarrassing or bad about account selling. Because every time I try to adress something that you haven't specifically said, you refute that what I'm saying was ever one of your intentions.

So regarding your post that I've quoted above. Why is it an embarrassment, what credibility does the forum claim to have, and why is it removed because you can sell or buy an account? Account selling and buying is  unenforcable on all accounts, not based on my performance, based on the technology available on the internet. How am I going to catch someone who is buying or selling an account through IRC? What technology exists where I can identify one user or another any better than you can? Banning something that you can't enforce doesn't eliminate it, it just drives it underground to a place where no one can see it taking place. If I banned Quickseller for selling accounts, would he leave the forums forever, or would he make a new account and be sneakier about his business? And again, what is the problem with accounts being actively purchased or sold?

We have addressed scams, we have addressed spam, you have yet to provide another reason why account selling is good/bad/embarrassing that is a real reason. I appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion, but if you actually want to voice your concerns you have to do so in a way that can be read and interpreted.

*edit*

Which point would you refute? The fact that people sell their accounts because they need money? That people scam because they need money? Or that when people have one way to get money cut off they will naturally try another way to get money?

>The fact that people sell their accounts because they need money?
People who sell their accounts for money are too stupid to scam. I mean, come on, a year's wort of posting for a couple of hundred bucks, tops?
They're no more of a threat than a leprosied beggar. Repulsive? Yes. Gagworty? For sure. Potential dangerous scammers? Lol.

>That people scam because they need money?
People scam for the same reason dogs lick their balls - because they can.

>Or that when people have one way to get money cut off they will naturally try another way to get money?
Yeah, and thwarted rapists would try to rape again, and thwarted thieves would try to steal. None of that implies that I should invite them to rape ME or steal from ME tho.

It's a big would out there, with plenty of rapables and stealables. Not gonna make bitcointalk the low-hanging fruit for second-rate crooks, let 'em get out & get some exercise.

See now you are just forgoing logic to try and win the argument. Scammers scam because they want to, not for the money? Come on. Again you keep trying to compare account buyers/sellers to rapists or thieves. Giving people a false sense of security by saying, don't worry you are safe, that account couldn't have been sold because its against the rules is what creates easy marks. Right now, people of Bitcointalk are probably the hardest people to steal from in the world. It still happens, but people here are taught quickly that anyone and everyone will take their money if given a chance. If we provide a safety net that would allow disallusioned people to let their guards down, they they are easy to steal from.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
Don't worry, this is just as time consuming for me. I've thought about the downsides of account selling for about 3 years now, this isn't a new topic and you aren't blowing my mind with your arguments. You keep trying to compare account selling to crimes and using that as your points, which is 100% completely wrong.

When discussing enforceability, what would you have me compare it to?

The TL;DR I'm getting from you is
  1. A ban on account dealing is unenforceable.
  2. Even if it was, I wouldn't do it, because there's nothing wrong with buying & selling forum accounts.
Is this summation correct?
If not, which (1 or 2) do you disagree with?

Will save some time

[SaltySpitoon]

[...]
Don't worry, this is just as time consuming for me. I've thought about the downsides of account selling for about 3 years now, this isn't a new topic and you aren't blowing my mind with your arguments. You keep trying to compare account selling to crimes and using that as your points, which is 100% completely wrong.

When discussing enforceability, what would you have me compare it to?

The TL;DR I'm getting from you is
  1. A ban on account dealing is unenforceable.
  2. Even if it was, I wouldn't do it, because there's nothing wrong with buying & selling forum accounts.
Is this summation correct?
If not, which (1 or 2) do you disagree with?

Will save some time

Correct, a ban on account dealing is unenforcable. If it was enforcable, I dont know, it would then be up to Theymos to decide if there was a rule against it or not. If he decided it was against the rules, I'd enforce that. If it wasn't against the rules, then I wouldn't.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
See now you are just forgoing logic to try and win the argument. Scammers scam because they want to, not for the money?

Scammers scam because THEY CAN. Please read more carefully. The thrust of the argument is mke it so that they CAN NOT scam, and you don't have to worry about WHY they scam.
See?

Come on. Again you keep trying to compare account buyers/sellers to rapists or thieves.

Unfair to rapists and thieves, or to account dealers? Not seeing your point.

Giving people a false sense of security by saying, don't worry you are safe, that account couldn't have been sold because its against the rules [...]

Where do you get this stuff? When you pack your kid's lunch, do you tell her "pumpkin, if anyone invites you to their house for some free candy, you go right ahead, because child molestation is illegal!"

I mean, does anyone else fall for such lulzy false dichotomies?

...
Correct, a ban on account dealing is unenforcable. If it was enforcable, I dont know, it would then be up to Theymos to decide if there was a rule against it or not. If he decided it was against the rules, I'd enforce that. If it wasn't against the rules, then I wouldn't.

In other words, you're a pawn, a clerk who'll do whatever you're told, even if it's against logic, common sense and your own beliefs.
And I've just spent hours talking to you.
Thanks for wasting my time.

[SaltySpitoon]

Scammers scam for the money, not because its fun. What human psychology books are you reading? Again you are trying to pump bullshit into the conversation talking about my kids' lunch. The users here aren't 6 years old kids, I'm just going to stop responding to points you make with misleading comparisons. I don't need to protect the adults on this forum, they are free to be as smart or stupid with their money as they wish.

This isn't my site. I don't get to pick and choose what rules I obey or enforce, if I didn't agree with the rules, I wouldn't be here, and I'd suggest the same for you. If you have a problem with it, you are welcome to leave. You are also welcome to stay and disagree with the rules, just keep in mind that because you are allowed to disagree with whatever you want doesn't give you the right to spam. (That was premptive, I mention this so you don't have to mention it in your next reply)

And with this, I know that you don't care about the practice of account selling, this is an attempt at bashing Quickseller. There are about 20 other threads doing the same, I'd recommend joining them. You are a week or two late for the Vod threads, but stick around, after Quickseller I'm sure there will be another.

Come on. Again you keep trying to compare account buyers/sellers to rapists or thieves.

Unfair to rapists and thieves, or to account dealers? Not seeing your point.

Thanks for wasting my time.

<3 Saltyspitoon

You know Supa, you could just use one of your 30 other Alt accounts, if you haven't been banned on them yet, why would you think you would be banned now?

[Quickseller]

IDK why supa even dislikes me so much. All I did was tag one of his alts, and declined to remove my negative trust when requested by him, even though the negative trust I left is "against the rules".

I take it as a compliment when scammers open up these kinds of threads against me, although I really haven't done anything to pill off supa

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
And with this, I know that you don't care about the practice of account selling, this is an attempt at bashing Quickseller.
[...]

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here? Defending your skeezy boyfriend? Well, color me impressed!
Allrighty, gg.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS92xBL0OARNDWFqbwkePIZPgG_m3NfvtOFIZm3Ymnj8Q64xW63

[SaltySpitoon]

[...]
And with this, I know that you don't care about the practice of account selling, this is an attempt at bashing Quickseller.
[...]

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here,m defending your skeezy boyfriend? Color me impressed
Allrighty, gg.

Hehe, good one. I did do a trade with quickseller once, was a pretty smooth transaction. We even used PGP so I was sure that he didn't sell his account. Alas, I'm too nervous to ask him to go steady though. Oh well.

I'm actually more impressed with myself that you are Supa. I was pretty sure based on something you had said, but I figured if I was wrong, I could still claim it was my point that it is hard to keep people from trading alt accounts as I can't establish ownership of an account any better than yourself. Moderators don't have access to anything IP related, and we can't check anything about user accounts out of the ordinary.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
I'm actually more impressed with myself that you are Supa. I was pretty sure based on something you had said, but I figured if I was wrong, I could still claim it was my point that it is hard to keep people from trading alt accounts as I can't establish ownership of an account any better than yourself. Moderators don't have access to anything IP related, and we can't check anything about user accounts out of the ordinary.

Thus far, I've been accused of being this guy

http://s2.postimg.org/vhwqk2e49/Capture.png

by two people, of being tspacepilot by one, and Supa by you. This account is only a few days old & the polls are still open.
Don't forget to call in, internet sleuths!