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Author Topic: Bitcoin v2.0  (Read 6717 times)
goatpig
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May 28, 2011, 09:42:59 PM
 #21

1) promotion here is good as i said. I said that  i wont start my network, but if it will need to happen then it will be yr. 2020 i.e. when everyone know WHAT bitcoin is and then set exact START date so noone will double transactions or so.

Now you got me lost. You're saying if Bitcoin works, then you'll start Bitcoin 2.0? I thought the point of Bitcoin 2.0 was to fix Bitcoin "1.0". If 1.0 needs to be fixed, naturally it can't work right? So how is it gonna make it to 2020 without your superior guidance? I say you should start your block chain right now. And I changed my mind, let's call it HurrDurrCoin.

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2) @up + sorry but investing pizza for 10k btc's isn't an investment. It's way under price. Dunno why people sold their btc's even if there was not really a lot of adopters? It was sure this idea will survive as it's new and DIFFERENT than any other ideas like Klamm lose or other stuff that's centralized. I always put money in such things but it was just spam of centralized shit so it was not worth of that

You seem to be under the illusion that Bitcoins are actually worth $10,000 each and that the whole process of public adoption is but a mere formality waiting to happen. If that's the case, first you should quickly buy all those BTC for $8 or so, that's literally getting it for pennies on the dollar, twice over. Second, why would Bitcoin need to be "fixed" again?

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3) i dont understand completly what you said but if you mentioned not earning miners then - they will earn by fees spent in network, and also by 1% of money growth every year ( i am talking here for day in years 2100+ because currently system will work for that year or even earlier with decent payout for miners just for 'mining' blocks)

So you're saying you think the fee alone won't be able to sustain good enough security. Your solution is to systemically inflate the currency. What makes you think people will switch over a taxed block chain when they can simply let the market figure it out on the original chain?

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5)  sorry, even translating this in google don't help me to understand what you mean.

You say you like the idea of a free currency. But then you say you want to modify that currency so that governments start liking it too. This takes away the "free" part.

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kstepyra
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May 28, 2011, 10:32:33 PM
 #22

@weavejester - Google stocks are google stocks, BTC is what you will HAVE to use when it comes to use as this is going to be global currency (i think that's the point?). That makes big difference. Noone want you to put money in the google stocks, however if btc become popular you will have to. And there will be always late adopters (someone has to be ?). I just consider option that BTC is global system where everyone is in it, not an $<->BTC speculative one or whatever you call it (investment one). Last adopters will always lose this way. Bitcoin v2.0 or however we should call it should just distribute money in better way as i said to be more fair to all. That's all. If you just make it as an investment then you can't call it money, and if you can call it money then it must be distributed properly to replace current money on the market, otherwise it's an pyramid where early adopters earn sitting and waiting for more people to come and put $s (their work) in system. We are talking about changing whole monetary system, not an risky investment to system that can fail probably.


@goatpig

1) the problem is that "my" bitcoin can't START and current bitcoin is unfair. That's why i say it would need to be in 2020 when everyone already heard about bitcoin and will be ready to exchange to "my" bitcoin in 2020 while still using $ in 2019 december, not an 1.0v of BTC. If v. 1.0 will get spread then it will be pyramided as i said so it won't be fixed any way possible.

2) (read what i wrote to @weavejester in this post)

3) about fees - current system is ok, but there was talk about how much of it should be implemented (percentiles of transaction or minimum fee) - i just say that it should be changed dynamically by the system to be always MINIMUM for example 1/10 of the price of matches or something like that. And that 1% of money growth per year - to keep money in same state of work/amount without deflation. It will be just easier for whole system and will put more miners into the network. We are talking about times 2050 or later when it's stable and working for all people around the world.

5) i don't like idea of any governments to be a part of it, i would love to see HOW much they really earn and be able to cut that off to the total minimum. I am mainly here because of that. I just love the idea to be free of the taxes, and pay really for what i have and would like to pay. The main thing i don't like is just the distribution and a lot of people will probably won't join thinking they are an 1mil person that will pay 100$ for one coin when other people sit on money being first.

last thing: Until money stabilize we can't use it everyday(too high price changes). Thats really hard and i hope a lot of people will join fast and 1 BTC will be always in the same work ratio.
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May 28, 2011, 10:55:54 PM
 #23

... early adopters ... Let them be rich, but not 10% of the system money and NOT for nothing...

And why not? Because that wouldn't be *fair*? Well, look around you! The world isn't fair at all. I'm sure 20% of the worlds population owns 80% of all wealth. Is that fair? Heck, no! This time it is might be hackers that gets to hold that money, not stock brokers, or people that inherit all their money.

Bitcoin isn't fair, but at least it was open for anyone. You (and I) didn't get on this train early enough. Shit happens. Get over it.
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May 28, 2011, 10:59:17 PM
 #24

Quote from: kstepyra
BTC is what you will HAVE to use when it comes to use as this is going to be global currency (i think that's the point?).

Actually, part of the point of Bitcoin is that no one is forcing you to use it (unlike fiat currencies).

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May 28, 2011, 11:00:19 PM
 #25

You (and I) didn't get on this train early enough. Shit happens. Get over it.

Not clear at all.  Depends what happens in the future.  If BTC goes up to $10 million, the move from $0 to $8 will be totally irrelevant.

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May 28, 2011, 11:08:25 PM
 #26

Let them be rich, but not 10% of the system money and NOT for nothing.
This is ignorant and offensive.  First, many of the early adopters were instrumental in actually building the system.  And, now, due to the appreciation of bitcoin, I imagine some are afforded the opportunity to quit their day jobs and work entirely on the bitcoin infrastructure.  Second, someone putting money into bitcoins early on is not someone getting something for nothing.  They had to trade something to acquire those bitcoins.  And I imagine they had to work in some capacity to obtain whatever it was that they traded for bitcoins.  That is wealth that they chose to put into bitcoins that they could have otherwise used to by food or the latest iGadget.  They were taking a risk that they might lose every bit of wealth they invested.

Also, as for 10%, well, for that to be a significant amount, you would have to believe that bitcoins are going to replace most other currencies...I think that is simply unrealistic (at least not anytime soon).  There are already competing alternatives (including existing national currencies) and there will likely be more.

I would encourage you to start a competing currency...if people agree with your sense of fairness, they might invest...especially if you offer a very large potential appreciation to early investors.  Wink

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May 28, 2011, 11:09:30 PM
 #27

So what if bitcoins become expensive? it won't be at all like giving all your money to the early adopters, you give some early adopter 1000$ he gives you a bitcoin, you purchase goods or services worth 1000$ using that bitcoin or trade it back whenever you see fit... you don't lose anything by it and early adapters gain some wealth, a very few maybe a lot, so what, nothing compared to govt institutions...

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weavejester
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May 28, 2011, 11:22:06 PM
 #28

@weavejester - Google stocks are google stocks, BTC is what you will HAVE to use when it comes to use as this is going to be global currency (i think that's the point?).

Not even the most optimistic bitcoin enthusiasts are predicting that bitcoin will replace all world currencies!

We are talking about changing whole monetary system, not an risky investment to system that can fail probably.

No, you're talking about changing the whole monetary system. Everyone else considers bitcoin to be a fun experiment and currently a risky investment.

If bitcoin succeeds, it will be as an alternative payment method. You'll still be able to pay things in dollars/euros/pounds/yen/whatever, especially since governments usually expect to pay your taxes in the local currency.

current bitcoin is unfair.

That's probably a good indication it will succeed Wink

I just love the idea to be free of the taxes

Adopting bitcoin doesn't mean you'll be magically free of taxes.

last thing: Until money stabilize we can't use it everyday(too high price changes). Thats really hard and i hope a lot of people will join fast and 1 BTC will be always in the same work ratio.

You could just peg the value of whatever you're selling to a dollar value until the price stabilizes. You'd still pay in bitcoins, but the price would be determined by the exchange rate.
goatpig
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May 28, 2011, 11:25:00 PM
 #29

BTC is what you will HAVE to use when it comes to use as this is going to be global currency (i think that's the point?).

No. This is why I'm telling people like you with either a pontificating disorder coupled with limited understanding of economics or control issues to start their own block chain and see for themselves to true nature of the blight they have given birth to. No one is forcing you to use Bitcoins. Bitcoins will only take over the entire international economy if its properties appeal to every member of the economy. Obviously it won't, look at yourself.

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1) the problem is that "my" bitcoin can't START and current bitcoin is unfair. That's why i say it would need to be in 2020 when everyone already heard about bitcoin and will be ready to exchange to "my" bitcoin in 2020 while still using $ in 2019 december, not an 1.0v of BTC. If v. 1.0 will get spread then it will be pyramided as i said so it won't be fixed any way possible.

Current Bitcoin isn't unfair, you're just reacting emotionally to it. But that's beyond the point. Now I see the full extent by which you are detached from reality. You are saying in a late future, when Bitcoin will be known to all, you shall start your superior coin and everyone will drop Bitcoin and join yours on day 1 because Bitcoin is flawed and your chimera fixes these flaws. How is that gonna work exactly? If Bitcoin is flawed, it will fail, and you won't have a community willing to join another version of it in throngs from day 1. The very idea that a concept should gain public approval on the sole premise that it is flawed and a fraud is disturbing. If anything, you should start your block chain this very moment. Every second you allow that fraudulent block chain to monopolize people's mind is a second more of work for you to redeem the name of Bitcoin so that v2.0 can take over. On the other hand, if v1.0 is a success, then obviously it isn't flawed, your changes are useless, and no one will join your 2.0. Actually, let's call it Bitcoin -2.0.

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Last adopters will always lose this way.

What are they losing? There are 3 types of currency models out there: inflationary, deflationary, stabilized (roflol pixie dust). Entry upon the market doesn't affect your outstanding wealth, so the only meaningful effect is the appreciation of your wealth over time. With an inflationary model, you stand at best to maintain your wealth, at worst to lose it all but a tiny fraction. With a stabilized model, you stand to drink the cool aid. With a deflationary model, you stand to maintain your wealth at worst, buy a space ship with spare change at best. So I'd like to see how you're losing anything.

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to be more fair to all.


I get it now, you're 12.

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And that 1% of money growth per year - to keep money in same state of work/amount without deflation.


With that level of inflation you're looking to double your monetary mass every 70 years or so...

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5) i don't like idea of any governments to be a part of it

Yet you want to change the currency to have governments adopt it. Do you want governments in or out of it? It's getting hard to follow you.

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just love the idea to be free of the taxes, and pay really for what i have and would like to pay.

You don't like taxes but you hate deflation and are in love with inflation? 'scuse me wha?

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The main thing i don't like is just the distribution and a lot of people will probably won't join thinking they are an 1mil person that will pay 100$ for one coin when other people sit on money being first.

The mother principle of private property is first come first served. Are you against private property too?

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May 28, 2011, 11:35:31 PM
 #30

I am too beginning to think it's a ponzi scheme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcdE9ngx08

LOOOOL  Grin This just caused me to laugh uncontrollably for like 3 minutes straight.

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May 28, 2011, 11:44:24 PM
 #31

All societies are pyramid schemes anyway. They start off with a few people stumbling upon vast amounts of usable land that no one else has found yet. After a few generations they are the "establishment", and future generations are at their mercy. Still, the "newbies" don't just up and leave, because they've grown up in the culture of the new society. A young man is promised that if he works for the first half of his life, he won't have to work for the second. Of course, this requires new "suckers" (the next generation) to support him in his old age.

Along the way, everyone becomes more secure and comfortable as technological discoveries are made, but each new generation is afforded less and less dignity. Except for the increasingly small ruling class--generally the direct descendants of the founders and a few very capable people who have "climbed up the pyramid"--the population is gradually stripped of general knowledge and self-sufficiency. Eventually the gap in wealth, knowledge, power, and culture between the elite and the (much larger) underclass becomes so great that communication between the two groups breaks down. The establishment stops promising newbies that if they work hard for a while they'll reap the rewards later. This usually comes to a head, with the ignorant, confused underclass feeling ripped off without being able to explain exactly why they feel that way, and the elite--having "drunk their own Koolaid", so to speak--indignant, unable to understand why these people, who have comfort and security--at the (hidden) cost of autonomy and dignity--are complaining.

At this point, the society usually collapses, either by falling prey to a younger, healthier society (like Israel fell to the Assyrians), or by simply consuming all of its wealth and disintegrating like the Romans.

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May 29, 2011, 12:02:52 AM
 #32

I expect this currency to fail in the next 50 years. I feel computers won't be secure enough for crypto-currencies for about 6 generations (150 years). The value of bitcoins will crash if people feel their private keys are no longer secret and are being actively abused or tracked.

When the crash happens, the UN can act as a "neutral" third-party to start bitcoin 2.0. Hopefully, the second version will correct any oversights in the protocol. The "bitcoin trillionaires" would be wise to invest in computing and power generation infrastructure in order to get a head-start on this new currency as well.

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May 29, 2011, 12:07:18 AM
 #33

@weavejester: I dont want to be free of taxes, i just want pay that many btc's(or $) as it is mentioned to be in real instead of paying quazilions of $ additional taxes for the bureaucratic system with people sitting behind their desks answering my phone with lowered voice to piss me off.


If BTC != change for whole monetary system then BTC can be perfect currency over internet - it does have big potential with support of $, € or other currencies. No fees, centralization and safety with anonymity - that's what i like in here:) if i wan't - i pay fees to make things faster, goood. And here with this vision of this currency, it can be as everyone said. I just mentioned it as global system that will just exchange USD or other inflationary currencies:)

This way i agree with you and everything is ok in here:)


@goatpig - you don't get my idea of bitcoin 2.0 and its start moment/idea. Read what i wrote again please. And it doesn't have to be MY coin. It can be started by Satoshi to be backed up by good authority. Point here is that it will fail because everyone just put money into Bitcoin (lets say v.1.0) so noone will exchange. There is no way another bitcoin will have chances to survive as GLOBAL MONETARY SYSTEM unless ALL countries PROVIDE exchange of all their money IN WEEK OR MONTH ! No way it can happen. Thats why bitcoin v.1.0 will survive and will be some kind of investment program for first investors.


About deflation: tell me then how early adopters will be able to build houses for 1 coin or lets say 100 coins?? Who is losing ? Early adopters because THEY build those houses while early adopters sit and drink cold drinks for microbitcoins.

"i get it now, you're 12." - i am not insulting you, and i hope you won't too. Everyone have other thoughts, thats why we are here. I just say that bitcoin can be somehow bit more fair to all. That's all.

"double your monetary mass every 70 years"... if we consider people losing BTC's on their accounts then how it can be done? it will be stable if here will be small sum of coins coming everyday. Let it be 0.1% yearly then. Just to have miners working and paying their bills for electricity and GPU's.


About taxes: I WILL pay taxes, just not as high as now (it can be even 38% in my country). Deflation can happen, but not that high as now. It will stabilize someday for sure but now it's not usable.

@DATA COMMANDER: i know a lot of things are f....d up in current world and they will forever be probably. The point is to get everything as good as it can be for everyone. Not everyone think this way and that's a big problem Smiley People stupidity, malice and greed (this mainly those in up of the pyramid) make it all difficult. Currently my country will lack on money for future pensions. Sick, but true.


Btw. meanwhile:



Bad luck or less miners ? I think those who invested in computers already stopped investing more because of BTC exchange rate stop.


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May 29, 2011, 12:10:15 AM
 #34

You don't even need to go to the trouble of creating your own new blockchain, there are plenty of startups already that you can buy into dirt cheap. In fact if you want to spread to a lot of people without costing them a lot and without the price growing so fast that within a very short time people are making this same complaint about early adopters having got it too cheap you should maybe even *try* to keep people from thinking it is going to be huge, going to make a fortune and so on.

In fact it might be best to try to come up with some method or approach that can somehow keep them from going up in price until all 21 million of them have been issued. Maybe tell people hey they are plenty more still coming, each day there are more so don't pay higher price for old ones, just wait a while for more new ones to be made or maybe even (depending on how exactly they are actually minted) participate in the minting process to make your own.

This can be done several times, so that if you think there might be more than 21 million people who might want one you can start making a new blockchain of another 21 million coins once the first 21 million are in circulation and there are still late adopters who would prefer a new coin costing only one of something instead of buying one of the already fully issued previous 21 million for more then one of something.

This might even be able to work like normal coins where you have different types trading at different values.

If you can clearly express all of the characteristics you are looking for in what the code should actually do in a blockchain you would like to buy into we can look over all the ones already out there to see if any of them match your criteria and if not then quite likely someone can easily start one that does match your criteria.

How much wealth exactly are you thinking of putting into whichever one does work the way you would like it to work?

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May 29, 2011, 07:26:14 AM
 #35

It seems like people like this have been cropping up since bitcoin began.  I remember a year ago having almost the exact same discussion with someone (even back then, when bitcoins were just barely worth more than the electricity it took to mint them, and everything was done on the CPU's and kilahashes.)

They all have a few similar features.

1) Very Poor English.  I think this leads to a lot of friction for them learning about how the system ACTUALLY works, for communicating their ideas well, or from considering the points that people rebuttle with.

2) A fundemental misunderstanding of economics/bitcoin.  "mining" being a scam?  The Mining is what holds the whole system together, what makes it cryptographically secure and worthwhile to begin with.  Maybe if you understood the whitepaper, or read a bit of the code, or took 30 seconds to think about WHY these choices were made, you'd understand that.

3) An unending, unquavering, unpersuadable attitude towards "the bitcoin doomsday" or "the Great Unjustice".

I wonder if Bitcoin, due to it's complicated nature, is doomed to be perpetually fraught with these "Throughput"s?  (Have a read of http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=547.0 for a good laugh.)

Against my better judgement... 1ADjszXMSRuAUjyy3ShFRy54SyRVrNDgDc
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May 29, 2011, 07:50:09 AM
 #36

What happens? BTC have value i.e. $10,000ea so last adopters will buy it for insane price, where early adopters will be able to build even their own country out of their BTC's? Sick. They did nothing to the society to have that workforce for nothing. Sorry - it's just ponzi scheme. I know they SHOULD have something for that, but 10% of the world's money is TOO much.

LOL as opposed to the current system where only virtuous, deserving people have fantastic wealth.  Seriously, the guys who cooked up the way to beat the violent monopolists who hold the world as slaves deserve to be fabulously wealthy. They took the early risks. They bought pizzas for what may eventually be billions of dollars. they wrote code without getting paid. You seem to want to compare Bitworld to some mythical ideal utopia instead of the real world or a realistic alternative. Every system has problems and bitworld is not different, but rewarding revolutionaries for giving us freedom is a feature, not a bug.

insert coin here:
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May 29, 2011, 10:15:58 AM
 #37

What happens? BTC have value i.e. $10,000ea so last adopters will buy it for insane price, where early adopters will be able to build even their own country out of their BTC's? Sick. They did nothing to the society to have that workforce for nothing. Sorry - it's just ponzi scheme. I know they SHOULD have something for that, but 10% of the world's money is TOO much.

LOL as opposed to the current system where only virtuous, deserving people have fantastic wealth.  Seriously, the guys who cooked up the way to beat the violent monopolists who hold the world as slaves deserve to be fabulously wealthy. They took the early risks. They bought pizzas for what may eventually be billions of dollars. they wrote code without getting paid. You seem to want to compare Bitworld to some mythical ideal utopia instead of the real world or a realistic alternative. Every system has problems and bitworld is not different, but rewarding revolutionaries for giving us freedom is a feature, not a bug.
+1, Amen
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May 29, 2011, 11:00:51 AM
 #38

Regarding early adopter rewards, I think if Bitcoin ever becomes big on the scale being discussed here, the coins early adopters have accumulated will have been spread out considerably. Consider the hypothetical owner of 1% of all Bitcoin - what will they do with that money? Bitcoin, like all other money, only has value insofar as  you can exchange it for something. Currently anyone holding, say, 200,000 BTC is only hypothetically a USD millionaire. Trying to sell even a few thousand BTC will move the market significantly. The same will continue to apply in the future. No-one with 1% of Bitcoin could actually swing that much wealth around without seriously moving the market at the same time. In effect, such a person could spend smaller amounts at will, but try to hire an army of workers or build new pyramids, and they'll find their (and everyone else's) buying power rather seriously diminished.

tl;dr:
If you hoard large amounts of a resource and the market develops without those resources in circulation, you can't expect to be able to dump your hoard and not see a large drop in prices of said resource. Hoards are theoretical wealth.

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May 29, 2011, 03:25:31 PM
 #39

@markm - i am not going to start my own block chain - it's just an idea where Satoshi (he is for sure here, i don't think he just went away from project of his life) can look at. However if you know any other systems RUNNING (or at least considered with pointed features) i would like to take a look:)

@Quantumplation - for your information i work in IT and i UNDERSTAND how the system works, i am just not a good writer. Technical side is not a problem and i NEVER considered mining here as scam. Read more carefully please, or ask if i wrote that in not understandable way. Mining will be always good to keep system working, i am just considering new start after 10 years which won't happen. (current mining IS unfair for late adopters BUT in future will work good to keep system secure, just like now. The problem i considered is that it can be fair start to everyone after 10 years with proper initial distribution also with mining to keep system working)
And please don't compare me to others until you read whole topic.

3) 'An unending, unquavering, unpersuadable attitude towards "the bitcoin doomsday" or "the Great Unjustice"'. -  no one says it will be forever unjust, i am just talking about early adopters which will gain a lot of human resources for small portion of work. BUT considering @rebuilder post i think if they will put all btcs within one month not just one hit then it will be all fine FOR SYSTEM, but still they will earn A LOT Smiley OK - let them be super rich, i just wan't to see how far bitcoin moves with everything with the way it's built.

Btw. if you do speak in English so good why i can't translate "unquavering" and "unpersuadable"? I understand what you mean, but google translator and other translators miss these words ; )
same stiches to "due to it's complicated nature" that should be "due to ITS complicated nature". You ALSO have deficiences in english. That was just one sentece i checked.

@billyjoeallen  - i totally agree , just looking for any system problems that can crack it in future and for improvements which won't happen probably Smiley
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May 29, 2011, 03:54:52 PM
 #40

@Quantumplation - for your information i work in IT and i UNDERSTAND how the system works, i am just not a good writer. Technical side is not a problem and i NEVER considered mining here as scam. Read more carefully please, or ask if i wrote that in not understandable way. Mining will be always good to keep system working,

Mining is just an good advertisement for the network Smiley 'MONEY for NOTHING' ? that's how 90% of the miners work.

Idea had to be spreaded somehow and it's working this way. Good. There was NO other option. But early adopters will be rich and any of the last adopters will need to work for them JUST like that?? Thats NOT good. This can be a killer for Bitcoins.

Nice way to backtrack.

As for your argument against my English, the point of language is to communicate.  If my sentences communicate my ideas cogently and concisely, then I consider it to be good English.  Excessive perfection of grammar and spelling is only something for uptight literature snobs to occupy themselves with.  You, however, are having difficulty both communicating your ideas and understanding the points that everyone else in this forum puts forward.  THAT is poor English, not misconjugating a negative gerund or misplacing an apostrophe at 3:30am. Wink

Against my better judgement... 1ADjszXMSRuAUjyy3ShFRy54SyRVrNDgDc
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