people "buying" trust without you noticing?

[koshgel]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

Agreed. If I'm going to do a trade with somebody, I will definitely look at the trust/references first to see what kind of transactions they have been involved with including how much, who sent first, etc.

Trust isn't 100% perfect. It's only an initial indicator of what you're dealing with.

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[koshgel]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

I think another thing people overlook is how absurd it is for escrows to leave positive trust to those who use their services. Completing a deal through escrow requires 0 trust at all, yet you have users like this who now have fairly high trust ratings just from using the same default trusted escrow multiple times. It is much easier to buy default trust through escrow than through lending, the second party in the trade can just be your alt account and all it costs you is the escrow fee, which is barely anything.

He does initially look trustworthy but even a cursory look shows that all his feedback come from escrow and buying carded gift cards. I would definitely not trade first with that person and hope others would do the same due diligence before engaging in trade. We can't expect the trust system to hold our hands 100% through the trade process.

[Quickseller]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

I think another thing people overlook is how absurd it is for escrows to leave positive trust to those who use their services. Completing a deal through escrow requires 0 trust at all, yet you have users like this who now have fairly high trust ratings just from using the same default trusted escrow multiple times. It is much easier to buy default trust through escrow than through lending, the second party in the trade can just be your alt account and all it costs you is the escrow fee, which is barely anything.

There is an arguement to leave positive trust for larger transactions and for more complex transactions in order to leave a more reputable paper trail of the trade however as a rule you should not be leaving positive trust when you escrow.

It is especially absurd to be leaving 5 trust ratings for small trades when he might as well have been trading with himself.

[redsn0w]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

I think another thing people overlook is how absurd it is for escrows to leave positive trust to those who use their services. Completing a deal through escrow requires 0 trust at all, yet you have users like this who now have fairly high trust ratings just from using the same default trusted escrow multiple times. It is much easier to buy default trust through escrow than through lending, the second party in the trade can just be your alt account and all it costs you is the escrow fee, which is barely anything.

There is an arguement to leave positive trust for larger transactions and for more complex transactions in order to leave a more reputable paper trail of the trade however as a rule you should not be leaving positive trust when you escrow.

It is especially absurd to be leaving 5 trust ratings for small trades when he might as well have been trading with himself.

I think it doesn't exist an 'how to' for the trust system, everyone can leave his positive trust (as much times he wants) but it is normal that everyone should also trade with his own diligence and check always the (complete) 'history' of that account.

[XinXan]

I think it depends because here is the thing, if an user gives a collateral for a loan and he repays it that doesnt mean he is trustworthy it means he didnt want to lose the collateral. And also as i said before giving loans without collateral is stupid for this reasons

[alani123]

I don't think that 'buying trust' would have actually been a thing if most people cared to create a personal trust list and therefore there wasn't any need for a default trust. This along with the fact that the whole trust concept would have been more meaningful if people were looking at the ratings and evaluating the volume and worthiness of the ratings from the trust page and not from a programmed overall rating.

[guitarplinker]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

I don't believe in giving positive trust to any member as it's like giving a person a reputation of always being trusted. I had given a person positive trust earlier when I had completed a trade with him successfully and he turned out to scam someone else. The people who he scammed almost blamed me for giving him a feedback just after one trade and that was a lesson learnt by me that I cannot take the responsibility of even a known person being trustworthy. They try to abuse the trust system then.

The exact same thing happened to me as well. I did a trade with someone for PayPal to Bitcoin for a fairly small amount (< $50) and everything went smooth. He asked me to leave some trust so I did. Less than 24 hours later, he ended up scamming someone for $100 or so. The person he scammed was fairly close to leaving me negative trust, as well as one other person who traded with him, just for dealing with this guy. He suspected that I was an alt account of the scammer, as well as the other guy the scammer traded with.

I think a wise decision would to only leave feedback to users who you've traded over x BTC with. Whether it be 0.5 BTC or 3 BTC, I suspect that would cut down on feedback buyers.

[funtotry]

Very easy to buy trust here. I could ask for like 20 different loans, build up trust from untrusted, and probably trusted members, only lose like 5% from generious interest, and never actually use the loans. Paying 5% on 1 btc total is 0.05 and you could make MUCH more money from scamming with your positive trust than 0.05 btc. Trust with loans should be disregarded.

[botany]

I like to check the lending section on this forum because is quite funny and sometimes i notice a guy who has some trust and is looking for loan without collateral, most of the time he gets it because he has good trust but then you check his trust and its all from previous loans. What has this guy been doing with all these loans? Like i saw a guy with literally more than 15 feedbacks from loans. Does he really need those loans or is he "buying trust" because it just seems weird. Other thing is that most people that do that look for really small loans

The same logic can be used for trades as well, not just loans. You can never be sure whether a person has done a trade just for trust, or is really interested in the trade. 

[funtotry]

I like to check the lending section on this forum because is quite funny and sometimes i notice a guy who has some trust and is looking for loan without collateral, most of the time he gets it because he has good trust but then you check his trust and its all from previous loans. What has this guy been doing with all these loans? Like i saw a guy with literally more than 15 feedbacks from loans. Does he really need those loans or is he "buying trust" because it just seems weird. Other thing is that most people that do that look for really small loans

The same logic can be used for trades as well, not just loans. You can never be sure whether a person has done a trade just for trust, or is really interested in the trade.  

Which is why everyone should actually click the reference and decide for themselves whether the trade holds any value in trust. I never trust loans as valid trust, but I look at things with how much money they COULD have stolen, like holding 10 btc in there website or something.

[XinXan]

I like to check the lending section on this forum because is quite funny and sometimes i notice a guy who has some trust and is looking for loan without collateral, most of the time he gets it because he has good trust but then you check his trust and its all from previous loans. What has this guy been doing with all these loans? Like i saw a guy with literally more than 15 feedbacks from loans. Does he really need those loans or is he "buying trust" because it just seems weird. Other thing is that most people that do that look for really small loans

The same logic can be used for trades as well, not just loans. You can never be sure whether a person has done a trade just for trust, or is really interested in the trade.  

Which is why everyone should actually click the reference and decide for themselves whether the trade holds any value in trust. I never trust loans as valid trust, but I look at things with how much money they COULD have stolen, like holding 10 btc in there website or something.

Indeed, and i think no one should trust people who give loans because they lose nothing if they require collateral, and i know a lot of people with a lot of trust points just because they give loans wich is stupid. I would consider a loan or a trade to be a positive trust point if it is big enough.

[Bardman]

There's no harm till a person is repaying his loans. It's not actually buying trust but it's building up trust and there are many members who do that but are trustworthy as well.

Building up trust is the same to me, if he really needs the loans, yea okay but why would a person need so many loans? And when most of them are small loans its just weird. Thats why im saying to not trust people just because they have green on their trust

[chronicsky]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

I think another thing people overlook is how absurd it is for escrows to leave positive trust to those who use their services. Completing a deal through escrow requires 0 trust at all, yet you have users like this who now have fairly high trust ratings just from using the same default trusted escrow multiple times. It is much easier to buy default trust through escrow than through lending, the second party in the trade can just be your alt account and all it costs you is the escrow fee, which is barely anything.

Wow! thanks for pointing that out!
I use SebastianJu as escrow always because as per my experience he is the fastest and best , after certain Feedbacks i already asked him to not give me anymore feedbacks so to make my profile look like full of his feedbacks and i asked him now to remove all his feedbacks for Escrow except one.
I don't really care about it , i use my well known name on here and i can be easily tracked back , why would i ever scam anyone . Am fine with always using Escrow. I easily make a good profit with trades and the btc community have provided so much to me and it'll keep providing it.

He does initially look trustworthy but even a cursory look shows that all his feedback come from escrow and buying carded gift cards. I would definitely not trade first with that person and hope others would do the same due diligence before engaging in trade. We can't expect the trust system to hold our hands 100% through the trade process.

My first ever trade was of selling stellar to some guy and as i remember until 2 months ago , sofia was selling these cards without any problem . He/she still is , but since it is considered taboo now , so i've stopped it! Most of my trades are for account selling not Cards , learn to read properly.
Also , QS prefers leaving tags for useless things and not leaving feedback for trades. I could care less, knowing pretty well what kind of person he is.
There is always a bigger picture around here for some people and some will know it , i could care less about it , even if someone negs me out of frustration (as many here does) , it would be fine as long as i use Escrow . So , why bother

[Bicknellski]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

How about 780 BTC and few people that verify it?

Then a mass of bullshit neg ratings?

Would you give me $80K USD to hold for you?

Trust no one unless you are willing and able to lose every satoshi.

[dogie]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

How about 780 BTC and few people that verify it?

Then a mass of bullshit neg ratings?

Would you give me $80K USD to hold for you?

Trust no one unless you are willing and able to lose every satoshi.

How is that relevant to what he said?

[SaltySpitoon]

I don't see why someone shouldn't leave feedback for loans that they complete. If someone borrows 0.01 BTC and pays back 0.015 BTC, make sure you leave that in your feedback. If someone has proven themselves trustworthy with 0.01 BTC, that doesn't mean they are trustworthy with any larger sums.

500 positive feedback from the most trusted members of the forum for 0.01 BTC each, doesn't make that person trustworthy with 5 BTC, maybe with 0.05.

How about 780 BTC and few people that verify it?

Then a mass of bullshit neg ratings?

Would you give me $80K USD to hold for you?

Trust no one unless you are willing and able to lose every satoshi.

Lol, I wouldn't trust Satoshi with 780 BTC. My point was that I dont see the problem with someone leaving truthful feedback. I've done small deals with people, and I've left them positive feedback, I just carefully explain my risks and the details of the trade, its up for whoever is trading with that person next to interpret their trade scores. I've left people positive feedback when I served as their escrow agent as well, but again I left that I had 0 risked bitcoins, and explained that I had served as escrow and that things had gone well. The Bitcoin value isn't the only thing that is worth knowing about someone's trading history. How well their communication, shipping times, etc are almost as valuable information as how much money they have been trusted with in the past.

Since you asked, I figure I would trust you with around 1.5-1.75 BTC, unless you have personal issues with me, in which case I'd trust you with 1 BTC or a bit less. And damn, your feedback page isn't pretty. I didn't see many claims that had anything to do with your financial trustworthiness, but damn do you have a lot of enemies. How many enemies someone has is also worth noting.

I've been in the Bitcoin scene for quite a while, you don't need to worry about me. I've never been scammed, because I've calculated trustworthiness to a near perfect science. Self interest my friends, people won't go against their own self interest, unless there are other motives towards screwing you over, which is how I factored that I'd trust you with less if I was one of your enemies (I'm not as far as I know).

*edit* Btw bick, you could probably ask to get your negative trust spam removed. The people with 100 negative ratings for you in the form of poems and stories actually make it difficult to read. Pretty sure that falls under the trust spam category that you could ask to have removed.

[XinXan]

Leaving positive trust is not bad, whats bad is that people may not look at the ratings or what they mean exactly and they would blindly trust someone that for example gives loans wich require no trust at all since he would probably ask for collateral so he is not risking anything

[Blazed]

I agree on escrow guys not leaving feedback so easily. A good example is OgNasty for escrow...he did not leave me a feedback until at least 15+ escrows were done successfully. I think trust here should be VERY hard to earn as it does provide you with a lot of potential to scam. Several months back I was not at home and my hot wallet machine was down. I was able to get a 5BTC loan in roughly 20 minutes with 0 collateral due to my trust score. Most of the escrows are also default trusted level 2, so their ratings do count as extra. I do not think a user who takes a micro loan should get feedback left for it right away.

[koshgel]

I agree on escrow guys not leaving feedback so easily. A good example is OgNasty for escrow...he did not leave me a feedback until at least 15+ escrows were done successfully. I think trust here should be VERY hard to earn as it does provide you with a lot of potential to scam. Several months back I was not at home and my hot wallet machine was down. I was able to get a 5BTC loan in roughly 20 minutes with 0 collateral due to my trust score. Most of the escrows are also default trusted level 2, so their ratings do count as extra. I do not think a user who takes a micro loan should get feedback left for it right away.

These are good thoughts and I agree, but how can they be enforced without the trust system being moderated?

[funtotry]

I agree on escrow guys not leaving feedback so easily. A good example is OgNasty for escrow...he did not leave me a feedback until at least 15+ escrows were done successfully. I think trust here should be VERY hard to earn as it does provide you with a lot of potential to scam. Several months back I was not at home and my hot wallet machine was down. I was able to get a 5BTC loan in roughly 20 minutes with 0 collateral due to my trust score. Most of the escrows are also default trusted level 2, so their ratings do count as extra. I do not think a user who takes a micro loan should get feedback left for it right away.

These are good thoughts and I agree, but how can they be enforced without the trust system being moderated?

It can't be enforced ever. Which is why people must CHECK the trust and why it was there. I don't blindly send 5 bitcoin to anyone with shiny green trust. I check each individual trust, check reference, and see if it is valid, then form my opinion after that.