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Author Topic: Illegal business over bitcoin  (Read 9516 times)
hahaha
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May 29, 2011, 05:58:09 AM
 #41

OK, so how do you stop child pornography?

My thoughts on child pornography:

first, child pornography has been shown by many studies to reduce risk of a pedophile offending with a child. Here is one study showing that availability of child porn decreases the average amount of child abuse in a given population: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1334656/Child-porn-legal-protect-children-abusers-say-scientists.html. Here is another study, it shows simulated child porn reduces offending. It is no surprise that if simulated child porn does that so does real child porn : http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/12/01/child_porn

Second, the statistics you know about child pornography are all made up by the police and anti groups. Here is a nice objective analysis of them laundering statistics, and some more reasonable figures: libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html

One of the biggest lies they tell to justify funding themselves billions of tax payer dollars to run after people who download CP, is that 80% of people arrested with CP have molested a child. However, the real figure is 16%, if you consider anyone over 18 years old having sex with anyone under 18 years old to be molesting a child. If you filter out that group of people, the % drops significantly below 16%.

One interesting thing to note is the fact that photographic forensics can not differentiate between a 15 year old and an 18 year old, but at the same time it is argued that normal adult men are only attracted to those who are 17 years or older. There is one inconsistency that really sets the stage for an assortment of other contradictory lies from the same group of people.

Next we could discuss real deviant child porn, which we can all agree normal adult men would not be attracted to. We can also agree that the production of such porn requires a victim and that production is for this reason wrong. You can try to correlate the demand for such porn with the production of the porn, but this is only a moderately accurate way to look at things. There have been large studios that produce child porn for the only goal of profit, the demand for child porn did in these cases cause production. So, we can even agree that paying for child porn is bad. However, much like file sharing has hurt the music and movie industry, child porn file sharing hurts the for profit child porn production industry. At least the feds must agree with this, because they can not say that file sharing hurts legitimate for profit data distribution industries but not illegal for profit data sharing industries. Here the feds are caught in another contradiction, they must either admit that file sharing does not hurt the music and movie industry or they must admit that file sharing does hurt the for profit child porn industry. If the for profit child porn industry is hurt by file sharing, one would assume that this would lead to less commercial production. Here is one of many good reasons for legalization of the not for profit child porn distribution 'industry'. Of course you may be in favor of free information and argue that P2P doesn't hurt the music and movie industry. But then again you are not really for free information because you want to censor child pornography.

Next you could try to argue that users of child porn create a demand that is not tied directly to financial gain. This argument makes no sense because the people who make not for profit deviant child porn are either pedophiles, sadists or exhibitionists. Pedophiles are going to be attracted to under age children no matter what, and for this reason there is some risk that they will have sexual intercourse with them. This attraction and potential sexual intercourse take place fully outside of any exchanges of child pornography. In these cases documentation of paedophilia oriented 'relationships' is the result of paedophilia, not the result of demand for the documentation. Sadists are also going to desire to inflict pain on easy targets and this will also be the case outside of any market for the documentation of said abuse. You really must be delusional to think that a serial killer will not kill if nobody looks at the pictures of corpses left behind. Exhibitionists are perhaps an exception, they may only produce child pornography because of the audience. However, there will always be an audience of undercover police and any fool knows that if you put a picture of you abusing a child on the internet it will get into the hands of the police. The exhibitionist child abuser may for this reason not care if there is no demand for their documented abuse, because someone will see it anyway.

So now we have established that legalization of not for profit child pornography distribution does not lead to an increased production of child pornography but also hurts the for profit producers and for this reason lowers the amount of production. Even if some exhibitionists wont produce child porn with out a large non-police audience, the Russian production studios producing millions of child pornography images and videos are probably responsible for a far larger amount of child abuse. Making it so they can not profit and thus not produce will still result in lower amounts of child abuse than making the entire market illegal.

Then you have what is in my opinion the worst part about the full ordeal, the conspiracy to make profit off of the child porn industry by the prison industrial complex. Their propaganda tactics for accomplishing this are not secret, I refer you again to the following page which documents several of their lies: libertus.net/censor/resources/statistics-laundering.html . Of course the mass media are also eager to use scaremongering to rile you all up. They call people who are busted with pictures of naked teenagers child pornographers. Do you consider yourself a pornographer for looking at naked 18 year olds (not that a naked 15 and 18 year old can be forensically differentiated or anything)? No, they misuse words to create a far more scary picture than exists and get people foaming at the mouth.

As usual,the police society identify a minority that is easily demonized (pictures of naked 16 year olds turns to possessor of child pornography turns to pedophile turns to child molester) and marginalized, the mainstream media scares the shit out of people with lies and inflated statistics that are based on inflated statistics, and a black market is created. Then the police use the peoples fear of the marginalized people to make new things illegal, to get in the way of non-statist progress towards liberty (ie: take our rights away), and to funnel tremendous amounts of our money to their budgets. All of this when in reality they are largely doing nothing more than locking up dollar signs in prison beds, not child predators even. If you want to actually stop child sexual abuse you are sure as hell not going to accomplish it by chasing 1's and 0's around the internet leaving a trail of people who are ruined for life the vast majority of whom never hurt a child and a great deal of whom are not even pedophiles. It makes me fucking sick what you zombies let the government get away with. Truth means jack shit at all to you.

The only good argument against the legalization of the not for profit child porn trade is that it is a violation of the privacy of the victims. On the other hand, it would result in less victims for a variety of reasons (including that access to child porn has been shown by multiple studies
to reduce the risk of a pedophile offending with a child). And no matter what, violating a persons privacy by looking at a series of colored pixels on the internet is not deserving of being branded the most hated thing in the world and completely fucked for the rest of your life. Not to mention the real privacy violation already happened for the picture to be made in the first place.

PS: The best way to combat child porn is use Tor exit nodes for open source intelligence + run the streams through CP identification algorithms and then have teams of photographic forensic specialists narrow in on the producer via various techniques. Wow, you just turned the entire non-encryption using community of pedophiles who use Tor into undercovers good job.
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May 29, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
 #42

Ummm, Welcome to Bitcoin.

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haahaha
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May 29, 2011, 06:20:26 AM
 #43

Ummm, Welcome to Bitcoin.

The main point I am trying to get across is that the best way to combat for profit child pornography production is to legalize not for profit child porn distribution, and doing this will also result in lower amounts of child sex abuse by pedophiles, and will have no effect at all on other sorts of production which are best fought with photographic forensics or traffic analysis than financial network analysis. But this will not happen, because then the government loses a scaremongering tool and also a huge chunk of their budget which is used to combat largely the not for profit child pornography distribution systems and they end up arresting overwhelmingly people who would never abuse children. So bitch about the governments failure to use a good anti-child-abuse strategy to fatten their own pockets and take our rights away, instead of bitching about Bitcoin.
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May 29, 2011, 07:59:59 AM
 #44

The main point I am trying to get across is that the best way to combat for profit child pornography production is to legalize not for profit child porn distribution, and doing this will also result in lower amounts of child sex abuse by pedophiles, and will have no effect at all on other sorts of production which are best fought with photographic forensics or traffic analysis than financial network analysis. But this will not happen, because then the government loses a scaremongering tool and also a huge chunk of their budget which is used to combat largely the not for profit child pornography distribution systems and they end up arresting overwhelmingly people who would never abuse children. So bitch about the governments failure to use a good anti-child-abuse strategy to fatten their own pockets and take our rights away, instead of bitching about Bitcoin.

Like my signature says.

Svyborg looks at you like at piece of shi...
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May 29, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
 #45

The answer to this topic is simple, do you believe there will be more harm from activities funded by bitcoin, or more harm from the hypothetical institutions used to regulate bitcoin?? IMO An absolute answer is based purely on faith.

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May 29, 2011, 08:15:30 AM
 #46

We made it completely anon, So we have to expect this to happen.
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May 29, 2011, 10:11:22 AM
 #47

I agree with hahaha. The media hysteria over paedophilia is ridiculous. A few years ago in the UK a load of tabloid readers got so whipped up, they put bricks through a paediatrician's windows. It was then that I realised just how stupid humans could be.

Hi PabloW, I hope you can push past the emotional responses and really think about what JonDoe said. He wasn't asking you a stupid question, nor was he just being awkward.
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May 29, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
 #48

Point remains that illegal businesses can still profit from Bitcoin. An illegal business still goes both ways. Money has to go to the seller, illegal contraband (be it guns, drugs, childporn or even just casu marzu) has to go to the buyer. Bitcoin can cover them on the first leg, so in that way Bitcoin does help them. If the federal government or the ninja's can't get information on the money transactions, they'll have to put their complete focus on the other side of the exchange. The transactions themselves are still punishable, but harder to catch.  

What probably should be a bigger issue is how to let Bitcoin not become a market place for solely illegal businesses. If this happens, Bitcoins will get a bad name for themselves, 'because they are funding terrorists'. Nobody will want to use them, leading to devaluation. To prevent this, Bitcoins should be used for everyday transactions. They should be used by shops and consumers. Or even just for good, for example by non-profits trying to make the world a better place. That's why we (a non-profit called Fair Chance Nepal) are now also accepting Bitcoins for donations. Bitcoins putting underprivileged kids in Nepal through school... Doesn't get much better than that  Grin

If you want to hear more about Fair Chance Nepal, read here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10464.0  

Rens Pothuizen
Chairman Stichting Fair Chance Nepal | BTC: 1KqrHkN4roEffNmCDmew1BMZbg74AToSUz
stichtingfairchance.nl | Facebook: facebook.com/stichtingfairchance | Twitter: @Rens_SFCN
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May 29, 2011, 10:34:59 AM
 #49

If you want to know the currency that has the most "illegal" activity going on in, it's the US dollar. The banks, with tacit backing from the government launder huge sums of drug money. Don't believe me? Read this Bloomberg article.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/banks-financing-mexico-s-drug-cartels-admitted-in-wells-fargo-s-u-s-deal.html

Thats $380,000,000,000 in drug money. Thats 50% more than the intire GDP of Ireland. Any "illegal" activites of bitcoin pale in comparison. This drug "slush" money provides a great deal of liquidity for the banks. It also provides a huge some of foreign reserves for the Mexican government.

It's sad to see people posting, worrying about illegal (immoral?) activities of bitcoin, where in reality the governments (who people niavely think are the solution), are the cause of many of the problems.

I would soon expect the media to be full of stories about "nasty" people...people like **you** who use bitcoin. Getting the picutre yet? Check out this series of vidoes about how the government/financial olligarchy really runs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37RhdFGVsM
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May 29, 2011, 03:27:52 PM
 #50

The currency is neutral in illegal business, using it as a method of law enforcement is an invasion of privacy in the first place.  There are other ways to investigate crime that don't involve monitoring the entire financial system.
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May 29, 2011, 03:35:09 PM
 #51

yeah, yeah, yeah.

child porn, terrorists, criminals and drugs.

be afraid.

whatever.

next...
hazek
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May 29, 2011, 10:47:49 PM
 #52

ah nvm I misread Tongue

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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May 30, 2011, 07:19:37 PM
 #53

To combat the threat of BitCoin Crime, I propose the following changes to bitcoin:

  • I will create a BitCoin Reich whose authority will be assigned to a Führer, or guide, who will manage the powers of government for the betterment of the community.
  • The BitCoin Reich may delegate its powers (see below) to other entities; these delegations, and, if neccesary, their revocations, will be technocratically enforced via enhancements to the Bitcoin protocol and software.
  • The BitCoin Reich may abdicate its authority, optionally designating a new Government.  To retain its authority, the Reich must maintain a hash-chain of time-stamps.  If this chain is ever broken due to inactivity then the authority of the Reich's authority is automatically abdicated.  Any time Bitcoin finds itself without a Government, one will be created and assigned, at their option, to the next entity to find a block.  All of this will again be enforced technocratically via protocol enhancements.
  • I will be the first BitCoin Führer

Upon creation of the government, all existing Bitcoin balances will become "legacy bitcoins".  Legacy bitcoins may be held indefinitely but exchange of legacy bitcoins will be prohibited.  In order to convert legacy bitcoins to the new ReichsBitcoins, users will need to be registered with the authorities (me).  Once the registration requirements of the Reich are met, the Reich will, at its discretion, upgrade approved legacy bitcoins to ReichsBitcoins using a standard public-key / message digest signing mechanism and also issue new signed private keys to the user.  A small administrative fee will of course be required.

This way users will remain anonymous but the Reich will know everything necessary to govern and tax the usership.

The following changes will be required to allow the Reich to protect the ReichsBitcoin usership from crime:
  • Transactions will be reversible.  Only the Reich and its delegates will have the power to issue transaction reversals.
  • In additional to the traditional sender-initiated transfers, the Reich will have the unlimited authority to initiate arbitrary transfers of ReichsBitcoins to and from any party and for any reason it deems necessary.  Of course, this power will not be used to steal anyone's money -- my administration will only use it to enforce the tax laws, to remunerate victims of fraud, and to punish criminals.
  • A very small (less than 15%) amount of tax will need to be levied on ReichsBitcoin transactions.  Also anyone holding large amounts of coin (100+RBTC) will have their holdings taxed at a low, progressive rate annually.  No tax forms required!  All tax obligations will be automatically paid via Reich-initiated transfers.

This will be a big job but I think it's the least I can do to help protect the integrity of BitCoin and to protect innocent children and pets from the scourge of BitCoin Crime.  Wink

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May 30, 2011, 08:24:51 PM
 #54

This thread shows that Bitcoin is for pedophiles and sociopathic anarchofascists who love the ideology of survival of the fittest.

Child pornography can be stopped by educating children. When I was young I was taught about inappropriate photographs and everything.
And how does that stop you from being raped as a child? You blame the weak victim for not being strong enough to say no. 

The main point I am trying to get across is that the best way to combat for profit child pornography production is to legalize not for profit child porn distribution, and doing this will also result in lower amounts of child sex abuse by pedophiles, [...]
You're a pedophile or at least a sympathizer! I hope the forum admins will report your IP address to the authorities.

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May 30, 2011, 08:43:56 PM
 #55

What a load of crackpot libertarians. Anyone who doesn't think that government shouldn't have the right to regulate at least child porn has no respect from me, emotionally or intellectually. And, more generally, it's a belief in the magic power of unfettered markets that has created much of the mess that we're in at the moment.

I wish nothing but ill will to bitcoin (although, due to its inherent flaws, I'm quite sure that it will eventually fail anyway regardless of my feelings towards it). I can see that such an online currency has serious benefits over very badly managed currencies like the Zimbabwe dollar, but the real answer is to work to create stable governments and economies, not to create a big black market free from the potential ills but also the many benefits of government. And tax evasion already reduces the equity of tax systems to such an extent that the poor often lose a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the rich -- we should seek to reduce this for the sake of our respective societies, not create another means for it (and to the libertarian argument that the poor can use such a currency so that they don't get fucked over either, then we'd be in a state of virtual anarchy where the government couldn't fund education, road-building, healthcare, the military etc.; it would be a Hobbesian state of nature where few could prosper; in fact, we'd all be in bloody Zimbabwe!).
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May 30, 2011, 08:52:55 PM
 #56

This thread shows that Bitcoin is for pedophiles and sociopathic anarchofascists who love the ideology of survival of the fittest.

Your post shows that you see only what you want to see.

And pencils misspell words...

Bitcoin is a tool. Period. End of story. It's for anyone and everyone.

Criminals will commit crime regardless of the tools they have access to. Prohibition doesn't work.

When you ban tools because they can be used in crime, you take those tools out of the hands of the huge percentage of normal people that will use those tools for good. And guess what else, criminals don't care if you ban stuff, they will use it anyway. Laws and prohibition do not work!

You fight crime by going after criminals. I've already suggested how we take care of child predators earlier in the thread.


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May 30, 2011, 08:59:52 PM
 #57

What a load of crackpot libertarians. Anyone who doesn't think that government shouldn't have the right to regulate at least child porn has no respect from me, emotionally or intellectually. And, more generally, it's a belief in the magic power of unfettered markets that has created much of the mess that we're in at the moment.

I wish nothing but ill will to bitcoin (although, due to its inherent flaws, I'm quite sure that it will eventually fail anyway regardless of my feelings towards it). I can see that such an online currency has serious benefits over very badly managed currencies like the Zimbabwe dollar, but the real answer is to work to create stable governments and economies, not to create a big black market free from the potential ills but also the many benefits of government. And tax evasion already reduces the equity of tax systems to such an extent that the poor often lose a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the rich -- we should seek to reduce this for the sake of our respective societies, not create another means for it (and to the libertarian argument that the poor can use such a currency so that they don't get fucked over either, then we'd be in a state of virtual anarchy where the government couldn't fund education, road-building, healthcare, the military etc.; it would be a Hobbesian state of nature where few could prosper; in fact, we'd all be in bloody Zimbabwe!).

How about we grant them that right for a few hundred years, see how they do, and try something else?

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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May 30, 2011, 09:06:13 PM
 #58

What a load of crackpot libertarians. Anyone who doesn't think that government shouldn't have the right to regulate at least child porn has no respect from me, emotionally or intellectually. And, more generally, it's a belief in the magic power of unfettered markets that has created much of the mess that we're in at the moment.

I wish nothing but ill will to bitcoin (although, due to its inherent flaws, I'm quite sure that it will eventually fail anyway regardless of my feelings towards it). I can see that such an online currency has serious benefits over very badly managed currencies like the Zimbabwe dollar, but the real answer is to work to create stable governments and economies, not to create a big black market free from the potential ills but also the many benefits of government. And tax evasion already reduces the equity of tax systems to such an extent that the poor often lose a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the rich -- we should seek to reduce this for the sake of our respective societies, not create another means for it (and to the libertarian argument that the poor can use such a currency so that they don't get fucked over either, then we'd be in a state of virtual anarchy where the government couldn't fund education, road-building, healthcare, the military etc.; it would be a Hobbesian state of nature where few could prosper; in fact, we'd all be in bloody Zimbabwe!).

#1 Child porn has nothing to do with money. Regulating money will not stop child porn. You stop child porn by delivering swift and harsh punishment to those who abuse children.

#2 You must be very careful when you regulate anything. While you may trust those currently in power to use the regulation only for good, once the law is on the books, it's probably there to stay. Those in power in the future may decide that what you are doing is illegal, and you've already given them the power to control you through regulation.

Before passing a law, do not consider how it will be used in the best of hands, you must consider how it will be used by the worst despot imaginable.
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May 30, 2011, 09:13:28 PM
 #59

The Wealth Of Nations, Book II, Chapter III, p.346, para. 36.

The statesman who should attempt to direct private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals, would not only load himself with a most unnecessary attention, but assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it.

~Adam Smith
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May 30, 2011, 09:17:41 PM
 #60

OK. let's say there are some people using chemical engineering to do wonders for the world - but now a shady subgroup decided to use chemical engineering to manufacture drugs.  Should chemical engineering be outlawed?

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
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