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Author Topic: Illegal business over bitcoin  (Read 9517 times)
jismith
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May 30, 2011, 09:25:54 PM
 #61

What a load of crackpot libertarians. Anyone who doesn't think that government shouldn't have the right to regulate at least child porn has no respect from me, emotionally or intellectually. And, more generally, it's a belief in the magic power of unfettered markets that has created much of the mess that we're in at the moment.

I wish nothing but ill will to bitcoin (although, due to its inherent flaws, I'm quite sure that it will eventually fail anyway regardless of my feelings towards it). I can see that such an online currency has serious benefits over very badly managed currencies like the Zimbabwe dollar, but the real answer is to work to create stable governments and economies, not to create a big black market free from the potential ills but also the many benefits of government. And tax evasion already reduces the equity of tax systems to such an extent that the poor often lose a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the rich -- we should seek to reduce this for the sake of our respective societies, not create another means for it (and to the libertarian argument that the poor can use such a currency so that they don't get fucked over either, then we'd be in a state of virtual anarchy where the government couldn't fund education, road-building, healthcare, the military etc.; it would be a Hobbesian state of nature where few could prosper; in fact, we'd all be in bloody Zimbabwe!).

How about we grant them that right for a few hundred years, see how they do, and try something else?
Well, as you say, no one needs to grant Bitcoin the right to operate; it simply will operate, and is doing, and will fail or succeed based on its utility (regardless of any deleterious effects it may have on society, since, of course, markets are amoral).

So, for better or worse, the experiment's occurring (albeit on a minute scale at present). However, we can see the societal effects that a relatively laissez-faire economy has by looking at America as compared with, say, more regulated European economies like that of France or Germany (or, better still, the Scandinavian nations). Compared to those nations, it has enormous inequality (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/american-inequality-highlighted-by-30year-gap-in-life-expectancy-869736.html), huge mental and physical health problems (for which many people can't afford insurance), poor education, high crime levels, even higher levels of incarceration, low levels of trust in others (as shown on this thread Cheesy) etc. etc. I'm ashamed to say that my home nation, the UK, is much worse than mainland Europe on all of these counts too, and is not far behind the US. That's the price of economic 'freedom' (negative freedom, that is -- not, for many people, positive freedom, to use Isiah Berlin's important distinction).
The Bitcoin software, network, and concept is called "Bitcoin" with a capitalized "B". Bitcoin currency units are called "bitcoins" with a lowercase "b" -- this is often abbreviated BTC.
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jismith
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May 30, 2011, 09:27:30 PM
 #62

OK. let's say there are some people using chemical engineering to do wonders for the world - but now a shady subgroup decided to use chemical engineering to manufacture drugs.  Should chemical engineering be outlawed?
No, but it should be regulated. That's the point. And, of course, chemical engineering plants that aren't registered with the state (i.e. that don't pay taxes etc.) are illegally operating. So your analogy isn't the most useful I'm afraid.
cloud9
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May 30, 2011, 09:33:09 PM
 #63

OK. let's say there are some people using chemical engineering to do wonders for the world - but now a shady subgroup decided to use chemical engineering to manufacture drugs.  Should chemical engineering be outlawed?
No, but it should be regulated. That's the point. And, of course, chemical engineering plants that aren't registered with the state (i.e. that don't pay taxes etc.) are illegally operating. So your analogy isn't the most useful I'm afraid.

That is exactly the point - every chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) is not illegal because some chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) of another entity is illegal!

The group should not be outlawed just because a subgroup is criminal.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
jismith
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May 30, 2011, 09:39:31 PM
 #64


That is exactly the point - every chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) is not illegal because some chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) of another entity is illegal!

The group is not guilty of anything just because a subgroup is guilty of something.
But Bitcoin is free from state regulation. Any chemical engineering plant that is free from state regulation would be acting unjustly, however many great things it produced.

There may be lots of Bitcoin activity that's perfectly legitimate and nothing to worry about, but that doesn't matter if the system itself allows people easily to do immoral things (e.g. tax evasion, shore up profits from crime etc.). The system itself is wrong if that is the case, no matter how much good it does. After all, the fact that you give to charity isn't going to get you off a murder charge -- any wrong invalidates the good done. And the legitimate traffic can surely then find other, less morally dubious, channels to go through.
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May 30, 2011, 09:44:03 PM
 #65

So, for better or worse, the experiment's occurring (albeit on a minute scale at present). However, we can see the societal effects that a relatively laissez-faire economy has by looking at America as compared with, say, more regulated European economies like that of France or Germany (or, better still, the Scandinavian nations). Compared to those nations, it has enormous inequality (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/american-inequality-highlighted-by-30year-gap-in-life-expectancy-869736.html), huge mental and physical health problems (for which many people can't afford insurance), poor education, high crime levels, even higher levels of incarceration, low levels of trust in others (as shown on this thread Cheesy) etc. etc. I'm ashamed to say that my home nation, the UK, is much worse than mainland Europe on all of these counts too, and is not far behind the US. That's the price of economic 'freedom' (negative freedom, that is -- not, for many people, positive freedom, to use Isiah Berlin's important distinction).

Wtf are you talking about? I live in France and there isn't a single French man that doesn't secretly covet to bail the hell out of here to live in the USA. Always love the random newbie talking out of ass about countries he knows nothing of. Too bad, there are Europeans on this forum.

btcarmory.com
jismith
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May 30, 2011, 09:48:57 PM
 #66

So, for better or worse, the experiment's occurring (albeit on a minute scale at present). However, we can see the societal effects that a relatively laissez-faire economy has by looking at America as compared with, say, more regulated European economies like that of France or Germany (or, better still, the Scandinavian nations). Compared to those nations, it has enormous inequality (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/american-inequality-highlighted-by-30year-gap-in-life-expectancy-869736.html), huge mental and physical health problems (for which many people can't afford insurance), poor education, high crime levels, even higher levels of incarceration, low levels of trust in others (as shown on this thread Cheesy) etc. etc. I'm ashamed to say that my home nation, the UK, is much worse than mainland Europe on all of these counts too, and is not far behind the US. That's the price of economic 'freedom' (negative freedom, that is -- not, for many people, positive freedom, to use Isiah Berlin's important distinction).

Wtf are you talking about? I live in France and there isn't a single French man that doesn't secretly covet to bail the hell out of here to live in the USA. Always love the random newbie talking out of ass about countries he knows nothing of. Too bad, there are Europeans on this forum.
As you say, the grass is always greener. If you'd been born as a black man in a Harlem ghetto (with a high probability of ending up in prison), you might be coveting la France. (And French people might be coveting America, but that certainly doesn't mean that it'd live up to their expectations if they were to go there!) Of course, France certainly isn't a perfect nation -- no nation is -- it just has a slightly more equitable system than the US or UK in many ways. The Scandinavian countries are the real hallmarks of civilised society though (and Japan too, which is interesting, considering its competitiveness in the world economy, which shows that a fairer system needn't affect productivity).

If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level
Wreckus
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May 30, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
 #67

Why don't we print paper money, backed by bitcoins and let the government manage it!
cloud9
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May 30, 2011, 10:09:19 PM
 #68


That is exactly the point - every chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) is not illegal because some chemical engineering (or Bitcoin activity) of another entity is illegal!

The group is not guilty of anything just because a subgroup is guilty of something.
But Bitcoin is free from state regulation. Any chemical engineering plant that is free from state regulation would be acting unjustly, however many great things it produced.

There may be lots of Bitcoin activity that's perfectly legitimate and nothing to worry about, but that doesn't matter if the system itself allows people easily to do immoral things (e.g. tax evasion, shore up profits from crime etc.). The system itself is wrong if that is the case, no matter how much good it does. After all, the fact that you give to charity isn't going to get you off a murder charge -- any wrong invalidates the good done. And the legitimate traffic can surely then find other, less morally dubious, channels to go through.

You clearly do not understand the Bitcoin system.

Disclaimer:  Postings of Cloud9 are only individual views of opinion and/or musings and/or hypothesisses.  On a non-authoritative, peer-to-peer public forum, you do not need permission from Cloud9 to derive your own conclusions or opinions, so please do.  Calculations and assumptions to be verified.
shackleford
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May 30, 2011, 10:13:02 PM
 #69


If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level


Don't care where you are coming from.

You have ill will towards bitcoin. The principals of bitcoin is something I deeply believe in and you are here to spread an ideology  to a group of people that probably don't want to hear it.

On a side note is there no ignore option on the forums?
goatpig
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May 30, 2011, 10:18:02 PM
 #70

As you say, the grass is always greener. If you'd been born as a black man in a Harlem ghetto (with a high probability of ending up in prison), you might be coveting la France. (And French people might be coveting America, but that certainly doesn't mean that it'd live up to their expectations if they were to go there!) Of course, France certainly isn't a perfect nation -- no nation is -- it just has a slightly more equitable system than the US or UK in many ways. The Scandinavian countries are the real hallmarks of civilised society though (and Japan too, which is interesting, considering its competitiveness in the world economy, which shows that a fairer system needn't affect productivity).

If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level

France isn't equitable at all. The social security system is bankrupt twice over, populism and xenophobia are spreading wildly, we have ghettos run by drug lords, automatic weapons and all. The country is morally bankrupt as well. France is involved in 3 conflicts worldwide and it's barely even mentioned in the news. French people hardly care about it. It's an ugly struggle of the classes, each one demanding more socialism, each one refusing the others' demands. 18% of the population lives under the government defined poverty threshold. Every month kids die in national hospitals due to lack of workers and funds. I have had several personal, first hand experiences of lost family members and friends due to lack of personnel in hospitals. The country sports a whooping global 9% unemployment rate, 20% short term workers and 25% unemployment in the 18-25yo bracket.

Japan has been in a sore recession since the late 1990's, kthx.
Scandinavian countries have the particularity of having a really small population and being overly xenophobic. Norway and Sweden are not part of the Euro zone. Finland is, and is starting to crumble, this is why they're going full fascist next elections. Good job on your geopolitics class. And once again, don't argue about Europe with an European. I actually live here.

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jismith
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May 30, 2011, 10:23:51 PM
 #71


If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level


Don't care where you are coming from.

You have ill will towards bitcoin. The principals of bitcoin is something I deeply believe in and you are here to spread an ideology  to a group of people that probably don't want to hear it.

On a side note is there no ignore option on the forums?

Haha. Okay, sure, I'm not forcing you to read. But if you only ever engage with the kind of stuff you already believe in, well, your opinions aren't going to change much, are they? I suppose you must already have all the answers.
marcus_of_augustus
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May 30, 2011, 10:26:02 PM
 #72

If you see anybody doing any illegal business in your country you should report it to the cops.

If you can't get your head around free money you should not be buying bitcoin.

jismith
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May 30, 2011, 10:29:16 PM
 #73

As you say, the grass is always greener. If you'd been born as a black man in a Harlem ghetto (with a high probability of ending up in prison), you might be coveting la France. (And French people might be coveting America, but that certainly doesn't mean that it'd live up to their expectations if they were to go there!) Of course, France certainly isn't a perfect nation -- no nation is -- it just has a slightly more equitable system than the US or UK in many ways. The Scandinavian countries are the real hallmarks of civilised society though (and Japan too, which is interesting, considering its competitiveness in the world economy, which shows that a fairer system needn't affect productivity).

If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level

France isn't equitable at all. The social security system is bankrupt twice over, populism and xenophobia are spreading wildly, we have ghettos run by drug lords, automatic weapons and all. The country is morally bankrupt as well. France is involved in 3 conflicts worldwide and it's barely even mentioned in the news. French people hardly care about it. It's an ugly struggle of the classes, each one demanding more socialism, each one refusing the others' demands. 18% of the population lives under the government defined poverty threshold. Every month kids die in national hospitals due to lack of workers and funds. I have had several personal, first hand experiences of lost family members and friends due to lack of personnel in hospitals. The country sports a whooping global 9% unemployment rate, 20% short term workers and 25% unemployment in the 18-25yo bracket.

Japan has been in a sore recession since the late 1990's, kthx.
Scandinavian countries have the particularity of having a really small population and being overly xenophobic. Norway and Sweden are not part of the Euro zone. Finland is, and is starting to crumble, this is why they're going full fascist next elections. Good job on your geopolitics class. And once again, don't argue about Europe with an European. I actually live here.

I'm British and have lived in a couple of other European nations. Cheesy

Anyway, I've had enough politics for today; I'm logging off now. And, again, I'm not certainly saying that France is perfect (let's face it, suffering is everywhere in the world) -- merely that, all things considered, the data seems to show that it has a slightly better system than some other nations.
rezin777
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May 30, 2011, 10:34:19 PM
 #74

You clearly do not understand the Bitcoin system.

But it's so much easier to point at some of societies already existing problems (yes pre-Bitcoin problems), miraculously link them with Bitcoin (without a shred of evidence mind you), and call for immediate regulation in the name of the children (anti-terror, public safety, etc.), then it is to actually do your homework and realize that every transaction from the start has been publicly recorded, and every transaction included from here on out will be publicly recorded. And lets not even bring up the fact that miners can freeze coins. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=5979.0 

All we need to know is that child predators can use Bitcoin and that is why Bitcoin is bad. In fact, we should regulate (or even outlaw!) private transportation, photography, the internet, candy, and public schools while we are at it, because it would make as much sense!



"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

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jismith
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May 30, 2011, 10:37:48 PM
 #75

In fact, we should regulate (or even outlaw!) private transportation, photography, the internet, candy, and public schools while we are at it, because it would make as much sense!
You live in a country where those things aren't regulated? Where d'you live, Antarctica?
rezin777
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May 30, 2011, 10:44:47 PM
 #76

In fact, we should regulate (or even outlaw!) private transportation, photography, the internet, candy, and public schools while we are at it, because it would make as much sense!
You live in a country where those things aren't regulated? Where d'you live, Antarctica?

Those things are regulated and we still have child porn? I'm shocked!
realnowhereman
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May 30, 2011, 10:49:48 PM
 #77


If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level

... and you might be interested in the thorough debunking of that book and its authors in this book http://spiritleveldelusion.blogspot.com/,

1AAZ4xBHbiCr96nsZJ8jtPkSzsg1CqhwDa
marcus_of_augustus
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May 30, 2011, 10:57:53 PM
 #78

In fact, we should regulate (or even outlaw!) private transportation, photography, the internet, candy, and public schools while we are at it, because it would make as much sense!
You live in a country where those things aren't regulated? Where d'you live, Antarctica?

Okay, so a regulation troll from the UK ... boy are we ever getting them all around here these days.

hazek
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May 30, 2011, 11:28:04 PM
 #79

In fact, we should regulate (or even outlaw!) private transportation, photography, the internet, candy, and public schools while we are at it, because it would make as much sense!
You live in a country where those things aren't regulated? Where d'you live, Antarctica?

Those things are regulated and we still have child porn? I'm shocked!

Dude, you're trying way too hard. It's not like they can go and change the way Bitcoin works..  Roll Eyes so who cares what delusional concepts they believe to be the facts of reality.  Wink

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
shackleford
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May 30, 2011, 11:37:09 PM
 #80


If you're interested, this book is worth reading as a fairly decent overview of where I'm coming from: http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resource/the-spirit-level


Don't care where you are coming from.

You have ill will towards bitcoin. The principals of bitcoin is something I deeply believe in and you are here to spread an ideology  to a group of people that probably don't want to hear it.

On a side note is there no ignore option on the forums?

Haha. Okay, sure, I'm not forcing you to read. But if you only ever engage with the kind of stuff you already believe in, well, your opinions aren't going to change much, are they? I suppose you must already have all the answers.

I have been around the block enough to know that some things are pointless to argue. Just like religion people get entrenched in their political ideas  and it is pointless to argue. I have already read enough of your posts today to know where you are coming from .  You are promoting  "good of the many" over individual freedom.. from the headline of your link to the argument about schools/roads/and hospitals.

I am tired of this debate..same tired arguments. Bitcoin is a FU to the people who wish to control everything they can "for the good of the many". Did you think you were going to come in here and say "we must protect the children" and destroy bitcoin? there will be hordes more of people like you coming this way..

I know why I am here and I know why you are here.....ignore
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