Is PoS the future of Bitcoin mining?

[oblivi]

Nope, but PoW isn't as well... right now is the best we got, but clearly is not ideal. Even people like Gavin are saying it's a waste, and we should eventually find a superior way to deal with all of this.

[1715478404]

1715478404

[inBitweTrust]

You can agree of disagree but classic PoW is going to die.

Maybe in a year, maybe in 5 years but it is going to die. It is expensive, it s waste of energy, it generates negative extrenalities and it ll die.

Why cannot waste energy be recycled into a useful byproduct? Can you not think of some positive externalities of PoW?

1) Spurring ASIC and chip development
2) Encouraging innovation into datacenter and cooling technologies
3) Creating new technologies that recycle waste heat for useful needs
4) Providing a source of security that cannot be easily manufactured and costs real money and real resources to attack
5) Removing the ability of direct human involvement from being able to manipulate or attack the network by separating the power dynamic between the full nodes, miners and developers

Perhaps there will be a version of PoR or a "curecoin" like PoW version could be used in the future. Curecoin current has to depend both on ASIC SHA256 mining and GPU folding for security so doesn't represent a good example of a 100% folding PoW. I could see a small possibility of a future PoR/newer PoW algo slowly being introduced into the reward structure and eventually replace PoW if the benefits are much better and an alt can show it is secure.

[crazyivan]

You can agree of disagree but classic PoW is going to die.

Maybe in a year, maybe in 5 years but it is going to die. It is expensive, it s waste of energy, it generates negative extrenalities and it ll die.

Whether PoS or something else s going to be the next step in evolution of crypto, that I cannot claim. But BTC ll have to adapt and improve. Or fade away.

Considering BTC as something final and untouchable in the crypto world is not good. There has be a constant tendency towards innovation and improvements.

What is "negative extrenalities"?

This is how Wiki defines it: "A negative externality (also called "external cost" or "external diseconomy") is an economic activity that imposes a negative effect on an unrelated third party."

In other words, negative aftereffects generated by the waste of energy caused by PoW mining.

[Lauda]

You can agree of disagree but classic PoW is going to die.

Maybe in a year, maybe in 5 years but it is going to die. It is expensive, it s waste of energy, it generates negative extrenalities and it ll die.

Whether PoS or something else s going to be the next step in evolution of crypto, that I cannot claim. But BTC ll have to adapt and improve. Or fade away.

Considering BTC as something final and untouchable in the crypto world is not good. There has be a constant tendency towards innovation and improvements.

Did a magic ball tell you that that is going to happen?
I personally don't mine PoW. I know because I was a miner who at a time was barely paying for the electricity. Considering all the ways that humans are wasting energy, there is nothing wrong with wasting some for Bitcoin.
PoS isn't the next step because it is not as safe as people think. You'd need to dig up a few threads to find out why.

[Amph]

Nope, but PoW isn't as well... right now is the best we got, but clearly is not ideal. Even people like Gavin are saying it's a waste, and we should eventually find a superior way to deal with all of this.

why worry about it, can always be changed in the future, i mean hard fork aren't that scary, we are approching one for the block size, we will make other to improve the overall bitcoin world

maybe the better alternative isn't out yet, pos ins't exactly the answer and it is also an old protocol like pow

[Agestorzrxx]

POS may be the future of Bitcoin mining, but not now.(Sure i am taking about NXT's type of POS)
From now, there is no POS coin success, the reason is, POW is still the most and only fair way to distribute coins.

[BTC_Superman]

Sorry, I am not agree with this issue. Changing of anything will destroy Bitcoin.

[shulio]

You can agree of disagree but classic PoW is going to die.

Maybe in a year, maybe in 5 years but it is going to die. It is expensive, it s waste of energy, it generates negative extrenalities and it ll die.

Whether PoS or something else s going to be the next step in evolution of crypto, that I cannot claim. But BTC ll have to adapt and improve. Or fade away.

Considering BTC as something final and untouchable in the crypto world is not good. There has be a constant tendency towards innovation and improvements.

Yes it is expensive because of the rise of difficulty and also the price is lowering day by day. What you are suggesting to be POS for the sake of decentralization wont solve this issue because if bitcoin is to switch into POS then people could easily create a staking pool for that. BTC is not final and it needs to be change for the better, but changing to POS is not a better thing than the current one

[cyberpinoy]

Yes POS is the Future of all mining.

Bitcoin was the first of its kind, and most of its protocol was based on things that are no loner a factor of the equation. The founders did not factor in for GPU Mining much less ASICS, and this is right now the downfall of Bitcoin. Large farms are manipulating the bitcoin network, whether people want to admit it or not. the original design was based on basic computer computational power and did not factor in the use of much faster machines like ASICS. the 2016 block difficulty re-target is killing bitcoin right now, 35 minute to 2 hour confirms, this is because the network is being manipulated.  I mean look at the difficulty compared to reward right now, not lets move into the future a bit, and think where will that difficulty be when the block reward is 3 BTC per block found? how many machines will you need to successfully mine 3 whole BTC. with the continual downward movement in price this does not look so good for bitcoins future.

Everyone thinks, "oh it will be ok as people leave the mining scene the difficulty will go down. But think about this, let's say i have 20PHS of mining power and I point that hash at the BTC network on block 2000 of the 2016 re-target mark, Once the 2016th block has been processed and the difficulty re-target takes place I move that 20 PHS off the bitcoin network and mine other coins( or If I am a real asshole and am doing it just to hurt bitcoin I just turn the mine off) and I do this that way every time the block re-target some up? what happens to bitcoin difficulty then? if you think this is already not happening? your naive, why do you think it is we have 35 minute to 2 hour confirmation times, because the network does not have the hash to support the difficulty.

In addition to this the blind faith lovers of bitcoin will say, Oh when the reward goes down the demand will go up, why, because there is such a huge demand for bitcoin, what is that demand, silk road is gone, look at the price, hackers are stealing every coin they can get any way they can get it, unethical companies scamming people, unprofitable investment opportunities ran by the most greedy of people.  What is this imaginary demand you feel will take over? By the time the reward gets to 3 BTC per solved block there will be more BTC on the market than can be used. Hence why we have nothing but downward sideways movement at the present. There is no real demand for the coin, and what Bitcoin had for it (illegal or not) has died and will not come back, as it proved to be less anonymous than it advertised.

POS coins do not use such large equipment, and the network can not be manipulated so easily. If you want to manipulate this mining it will cost you, you will have to either buy a lot of coins to do it, and hold them thus removing a portion of coins off the market driving the value up. But then you have to stay connected to the network 24/7 you have to hold the coins and never sell them, so it is not easily manipulated like POW coins.

[cyberpinoy]

Bitcoin is backed by petahashes of computing power in the same way tv shows are backed by tv stations and ratings. I don't care how good and well liked your show is, if nobody carries it, then nobody will see it.

PoS coins can be created instantly and need no investment in a network of hardware. Its demand is created by marketing and hype. PoS coins are like Youtube shows. There are millions to choose from.

Your funny, the hardware you need in POS mining is the exact same hardware bitcoin was founded around a computer connected to the network. the POS coins are NOT created instantly, you should read some of the coins, HyperStake has an 8 day maturity, that sure does not seem very "instant" to me A lot of the coins have an 8 hour maturity with about a 12 hour time before they will stake, again not so "instant" is it. And you wont get anything if your not connected to the network with your hardware (a computer)

And what is the demand we have for bitcoin, where was it created? Hype and its tradable value really is all that impacts its value right now? The one thing Bitcoin had going for it was illegal operations on silk road, and the banks made sure that came to a stop no matter how many people were hurt by their decision.

All the banks cared about was the massive negative attention they could bring to bitcoin, (who was imposing on thier trillion dollar a year holdings from drug money) and ruining the one thing that made it thrive. I mean ask yourself when was the last time a bank, its owners and its executives were held responsible for knowingly holding millions of dollars in drug money? They are not stupid, and they dont care where the money is coming from, all they care about is you hold your millions of dollars of drug money in their bank so they can day trade with it and turn it into billions of profit for themselves.

So in the end, POS coins dont need massive amounts of expensive hardware, a simple computer connected to the network is suffice to support their network and process transactions. they also have the ability to create thier own blocks, where as Bitcoin must have a transaction in order to keep the blockchain moving along, POS coins create new blocks everytime they stake, which helps to secure the movement on the blockchain. What happens to bitcoin if there are 0 transaction for 15 days?

[jonald_fyookball]

  POS coins create new blocks everytime they stake, which helps to secure the movement on the blockchain. What happens to bitcoin if there are 0 transaction for 15 days?

Most of what you are saying is pure FUD.  I guess you don't really know what you're talking about.
If there are 0 transactions for 15 days, blocks are still formed.  There will still always be the
coinbase transaction awarded to the miner. 

[R2D221]

Yes POS is the Future of all mining.

Bitcoin was the first of its kind, and most of its protocol was based on things that are no loner a factor of the equation. The founders did not factor in for GPU Mining much less ASICS, and this is right now the downfall of Bitcoin. Large farms are manipulating the bitcoin network, whether people want to admit it or not. the original design was based on basic computer computational power and did not factor in the use of much faster machines like ASICS. the 2016 block difficulty re-target is killing bitcoin right now, 35 minute to 2 hour confirms, this is because the network is being manipulated.  I mean look at the difficulty compared to reward right now, not lets move into the future a bit, and think where will that difficulty be when the block reward is 3 BTC per block found? how many machines will you need to successfully mine 3 whole BTC. with the continual downward movement in price this does not look so good for bitcoins future.

That's wrong. Satoshi made a clear statement where he expected big farms to do both the mining and having full nodes as Bitcoin started to grow. This whole “CPU mining” stuff was only at the very beginning, and clearly impractical for the worldwide network Bitcoin aims to be.

[cyberpinoy]

  POS coins create new blocks everytime they stake, which helps to secure the movement on the blockchain. What happens to bitcoin if there are 0 transaction for 15 days?

Most of what you are saying is pure FUD.  I guess you don't really know what you're talking about.
If there are 0 transactions for 15 days, blocks are still formed.  There will still always be the
coinbase transaction awarded to the miner. 

Transaction is the operative word here,

There is no reward if if you do not have a block to mine, there is no block if there are no transactions.

In POS when you stake a block is split creating 2 new blocks, and you can structure this to happen at your will with some of the coins, HyperStake has a split threshold you can set. You can also combine all your coins in one block once a month and allow it split and split and split for the next 30 days until you combine them.

you can't do that with bitcoin yet.

It is all FUD to you bitcoin lovers until you guys accept the facts that bitcoin has a lot of problems that could lead to its failure as the dominant coin of choice. There was a lot that the founders did not expect to happen and a lot more that they did not factor in because it didn't exist when bitcoin was founded, and all that is just beginning to bite them in the ass now.

[cyberpinoy]

That's wrong. Satoshi made a clear statement where he expected big farms to do both the mining and having full nodes as Bitcoin started to grow. This whole “CPU mining” stuff was only at the very beginning, and clearly impractical for the worldwide network Bitcoin aims to be.

And where is Satoshi at today.......... Oh thats right he left I wonder why?

[jonald_fyookball]

  POS coins create new blocks everytime they stake, which helps to secure the movement on the blockchain. What happens to bitcoin if there are 0 transaction for 15 days?

Most of what you are saying is pure FUD.  I guess you don't really know what you're talking about.
If there are 0 transactions for 15 days, blocks are still formed.  There will still always be the
coinbase transaction awarded to the miner. 

Transaction is the operative word here,

There is no reward if if you do not have a block to mine, there is no block if there are no transactions.

In POS when you stake a block is split creating 2 new blocks, and you can structure this to happen at your will with some of the coins, HyperStake has a split threshold you can set. You can also combine all your coins in one block once a month and allow it split and split and split for the next 30 days until you combine them.

you can't do that with bitcoin yet.

It is all FUD to you bitcoin lovers until you guys accept the facts that bitcoin has a lot of problems that could lead to its failure as the dominant coin of choice. There was a lot that the founders did not expect to happen and a lot more that they did not factor in because it didn't exist when bitcoin was founded, and all that is just beginning to bite them in the ass now.

The miner creates the coinbase transaction to pay himself for mining the block.
That's included in the block.  It's always been that way.

[cyberpinoy]

The miner creates the coinbase transaction to pay himself for mining the block.
That's included in the block.  It's always been that way.

So what you are saying is if everyone stops using bitcoin and no transactions are being created one can assume from that point on miners would then be processing their own created transactions?

Please inform me again what happens when a 51% attack on bitcoin is successfully accomplished?


Here is one thing bitcoin people can not deny and when you figure out why this is, you will understand my "FUD" a lot better.

Bitcoin transaction takes 25 minutes to 2 hours to confirm, a Netcoin  transaction takes less than 5 minutes. You explain why this is. then I will tell you the truth of why it is happening

[mistercashking]

I think Pos has its advantages and disadvantages. But I prefer POW personally.

[jonald_fyookball]

The miner creates the coinbase transaction to pay himself for mining the block.
That's included in the block.  It's always been that way.

So what you are saying is if everyone stops using bitcoin and no transactions are being processed one can assume from that point on miners could then be processing their own created transactions?

Please inform me again what happens when a 51% attack on bitcoin is successfully accomplished again?


Here is one thing bitcoin people can not deny and when you figure out why this is, you will understand my "FUD" a lot better.

Bitcoin transaction takes 25 minutes to 2 hours to confirm, a Netcoin  transaction takes less than 5 minutes. You explain why this is. then I will tell you the truth of why it is happening

If "everyone stops using a coin", then its a moot point because no one is using it,
however even if that happened, blocks would still form if there was even a single
miner who was operating.

The average time to confirm for Bitcoin is 10 minutes, however
the transactions process within seconds.  

When was there ever a successful 51% attack on Bitcoin?

[R2D221]

That's wrong. Satoshi made a clear statement where he expected big farms to do both the mining and having full nodes as Bitcoin started to grow. This whole “CPU mining” stuff was only at the very beginning, and clearly impractical for the worldwide network Bitcoin aims to be.

And where is Satoshi at today.......... Oh thats right he left I wonder why?

I also wonder why. But that's tangential to the discussion. You said it was not considered by the core devs, which is a lie. Get your facts straight, first of all.

[cyberpinoy]

The average time to confirm for Bitcoin is 10 minutes, however
the transactions process within seconds.

Yo are so full of it,

FYI I send over a dozen transactions out on payouts for my site every Monday, I also do transactions from my payment processor to my exchange account every single day, the transaction process is on average 5 to 10 minutes and the confirmed transaction that makes it spendable is anywhere from 25 minutes up to 2 hours. I am not reading this I actually experience it. You are quoting what bitcoin is supposed to accomplish which is not what it actually accomplishes.


And guess what I can prove it

On 2015-05-03 13:33:10 I sent my first payout
I sent a total of 18 transactions so
on 2015-05-03 15:02:22 I sent the last one.

I did nothing else, I input the amount clicked on the username in my wallet and clicked send, waited on the transaction to process and moved to the next investor and paid him.

You said it takes seconds to process a transaction , well then lets say 20 seconds per transaction just to be safe, it should have taken me (by your theory) 6 minutes to send those 18 transaction. All the usernames are stored in the wallet so all I have to do is click their name, input the amount and click send, input the private key and click ok

But if you look on my transactions page and from the proof above it actually took me an hour and a half to process 18 transactions. Which works out to be what? Roughly 5 minutes just to process a transaction.

And feel free to compare it to the other weeks and you will see as I do payouts I do them all at the same time, and they all are a lot more than "seconds" per transaction.

I also wonder why. But that's tangential to the discussion. You said it was not considered by the core devs, which is a lie. Get your facts straight, first of all.

Satoshi left Bitocin in Mid 2010 get your facts straight you can nnot factor in something that has not been invented yet The tech was there (AMD tech was used for gaming only in 2010) but the ASIC miners were not