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Author Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion?  (Read 900233 times)
Moloch
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February 03, 2016, 08:41:27 PM
 #4381


There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.


1. You are not Wise
2. You are simple and idiot
3. You will continue to be simple and idiot if you won't change.

What's the effect of this?!?

Can we keep Wisdom (and maybe Simplicity) and throwing Stupidity?

"Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly."
- Pro 13:16

Best regards.

I feel like I should be agreeing with this, but I'm not sure.

I thought the same thing when I read it... I'm not sure BitNow understands which side he's on? lol
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February 03, 2016, 09:09:47 PM
 #4382


There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.


1. You are not Wise
2. You are simple and idiot
3. You will continue to be simple and idiot if you won't change.

What's the effect of this?!?

Can we keep Wisdom (and maybe Simplicity) and throwing Stupidity?

"Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly."
- Pro 13:16

Best regards.

I feel like I should be agreeing with this, but I'm not sure.

I thought the same thing when I read it... I'm not sure BitNow understands which side he's on? lol

BitNow and BADecker have a long history of vigorous debate in this thread. Usually about pointless and completely unprovable topics, so their conversation usually just peters out to a quiet and cranky stalemate.


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February 03, 2016, 10:30:48 PM
 #4383


BitNow and BADecker have a long history of vigorous debate in this thread. Usually about pointless and completely unprovable topics, so their conversation usually just peters out to a quiet and cranky stalemate.


Foolness is blamed all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Wisdom is the opposite of foolness and is praised all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Foolness and Simplicity often goes together and Simplicity carry beauty most of the times.

"Stupidity is a snake biting when touched."

Only Wisdom leads to Science.

Thomas A.Edison Vs Nikola Tesla.


Best regards.


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organofcorti
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February 03, 2016, 10:39:51 PM
 #4384


BitNow and BADecker have a long history of vigorous debate in this thread. Usually about pointless and completely unprovable topics, so their conversation usually just peters out to a quiet and cranky stalemate.


Foolness is blamed all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Wisdom is the opposite of foolness and is praised all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Foolness and Simplicity often goes together and Simplicity carry beauty most of the times.

"Stupidity is a snake biting when touched."

Only Wisdom leads to Science.

Thomas A.Edison Vs Nikola Tesla.


Best regards.


I don't think BADecker meant to annoy you quite that much. I think you probably agree more than you disagree, so you calling him a fool is a bit over the top IMO.


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February 03, 2016, 10:50:36 PM
 #4385

Many Jews of Jesus' day converted to Christianity. This included Jewish priests and scribes. These people are of a kind who diligently keep and uphold records. They attest to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports.

Ok, I'm calling bullshit on this one... this is a complete lie

Show me a single account of a Jewish priest or scribe converting to Christianity, and "attesting to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports."

You got a source/link for that?  Because it's bullshit!

(P.S., Don't try telling me about the Jews, I am a Jew)

There are lots of Jewish Christian churches around. There always have been. Look them up in your phone book.

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February 03, 2016, 10:58:17 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2016, 11:10:21 PM by Moloch
 #4386

"Stupidity is a snake biting when touched."

Do you know why Satan was sent to hell?

Satan accused God of making a poor moral decision.  Satan's movement had a rapid following... quickly, a full 1/3 of all the angels were in support of Satan, opposing God.  God, realizing he was about to lose the majority, silenced the movement by banishing Satan and 1/3 of all the angels to hell.  God did not give Satan a trial, or even a chance to defend himself before being banished for eternity... (reference: Revelation 12:3-12)

Would you call that justice, or good basis for morality?  I call it tyranny!
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February 03, 2016, 11:08:31 PM
 #4387


Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Smiley

Humm... Jesus is different from the Bible. The biggest part of the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus, you know that no?

Now what started this line of thinking?

Actually, you are wrong. The whole theme of the Bible is to show the salvation that Jesus provides. In fact, the beginning of the Gospel of John in the New Testament says:
Quote
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

In the quote, the word "Word" is used to refer to both Jesus and the Bible.

In addition, Jesus, Himself, said, referring to the Scriptures (Bible):
Quote
These are they which testify about me.

The Bible is essentially, at least in theme, Jesus.

Smiley

What about the Leviticus for example? Which is the part where homosexuality or the worship of other gods is heavily punished, most of the time by death (and a painful one). What's the link with Jesus here?

First let me go back to the beginning. After Adam and Eve sinned, God came to them walking in the Garden. They hid themselves because they were naked. You can read about it in Genesis chapter 3. Specifically for our purposes, verse 8:
Quote
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

God is a Spirit. Spirits don't walk in gardens in the cool of the day. The one aspect of God Who is not only a Spirit only, but is also a man so that He can walk, is Jesus. Jesus was there right in the beginning, already helping people through their sins and mistakes. Read how He helped Adam and Eve, it's in the Bible, in Genesis 3.

Regarding Leviticus, the whole period of the Israel people from the time even before they left Egypt, and throughout the early years in Canaan, Jesus is there... in the form that He has in the beginning chapter(s) of the Revelation. Whenever you see the words "the Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, this is talking about Jesus, before He came in His humility - as a child born of Mary. If you see the words, "an angel," or "an angel of the Lord," it probably is not talking about Jesus.

The whole Bible is about Jesus and the things He did to save mankind. In addition, it is written in ways that the reader will get the best advantage out of it... by listening to the stories of real people who lived real lives of trouble, just like all of us.

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February 03, 2016, 11:13:10 PM
 #4388


There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.


1. You are not Wise
2. You are simple and idiot
3. You will continue to be simple and idiot if you won't change.

What's the effect of this?!?

Can we keep Wisdom (and maybe Simplicity) and throwing Stupidity?

"Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly."
- Pro 13:16

Best regards.

It is good for you to hang onto the words of the Bible rather than other explanations. Keep the faith. It is the Bible that holds you in faith.

Smiley

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February 03, 2016, 11:13:28 PM
 #4389

Many Jews of Jesus' day converted to Christianity. This included Jewish priests and scribes. These people are of a kind who diligently keep and uphold records. They attest to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports.

Ok, I'm calling bullshit on this one... this is a complete lie

Show me a single account of a Jewish priest or scribe converting to Christianity, and "attesting to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports."

You got a source/link for that?  Because it's bullshit!

(P.S., Don't try telling me about the Jews, I am a Jew)

There are lots of Jewish Christian churches around. There always have been. Look them up in your phone book.


Translated:

"I lied"


The only "Jewish Christian" movement I am aware of is "Jews for Jesus".  My mother was part of their movement for a time while I was younger.  I can't recall ever hearing about a tradition of handing down eye witness reports about anything...

There is a strong Jewish Atheist movement... it has been estimated that nearly half of all Jews do not believe in God:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
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February 04, 2016, 12:01:14 AM
 #4390

There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.

First off, cause and effect disproves God until you find an effect that had no natural cause... that would kinda prove that something supernatural exists, but its never happened... unless you believe those fake "ghost hunter" shows on tv, in which case you are seriously gullible...
First, God does miracles at times. But it is difficult to say when, because we do not know for sure when the thing that appears to be a miracle, is simply some avenue of nature that we don't understand yet, or when it is God doing a miracle.

More complex things do not develop from less complex things. For example. Simple water converts into a snowflake that is far more complex than the water was. But the forces that act on the water to form it into the snowflake are are far more complex than the water and the snowflake.

Cause and effect proves God because, whatever could "pitch out" all those electrons and energies and whatever else, and form the complexity of today's universe, especially with regard to the complexity of the mind, soul, spirit and reasoning ability of man, must be way more complex than all of it. We see nothing else in nature other than complexity being made by greater complexity. Rather, we see a gradual decay of greater complexity into lesser complexity (entropy).

Whatever it was that could form the complexity that exists, must have been more complex. Something that is more complex than mankind fits the description of what God must be. The further back we can push the beginning - say that we have some new theory that says that the universe is 20 billion-y-o rather than just 13 billion - the greater God must be to have been able to toss out the things that He did to make the complexity that exists now, all made by cause and effect, over great periods of time, especially in the face of all-pervading entropy.



There is nothing about the big bang theory that would suggest complexity, intelligent design, or any such origin...
This is because Big Bang Theory doesn't take into account the complexity that we see in the light that there is only cause and effect. Since nothing more complex comes from something less complex, if it was Big Bang that made the complexity that we have now after many years of cause and effect, Big Bang must have been more complex. More complex than the brain and mind and intelligence of man (since man is part of the universe) shouts "God" in the Big Bang.


I see your misunderstanding after reading your post...

You think evolution = random chance?

Evolution is the opposite of random chance... it does have a random component, yes.  Mutations are random, but the selection is far from random... natural selection and survival of the fittest are the primary methods of evolution...
There is no evidence of anything happening randomly. There is only evidence of complexity so great that we can't follow it without using the random idea. Everything operates by cause and effect... no random whatsoever.

Consider the flip of a coin. Will it come up heads? Or will it come up tails. It seems random. But it is only random to us because we can't measure all the forces on the coin that caused it to come up one way or the other. There is no random.


The effects of natural selection can be observed nearly everywhere on the planet.  Predatory animals have evolved different adaptations than prey animals.  Their eyes are in different locations on the face.  Prey animals tend to camouflage, whereas predators have less need of this particular adaptation.

Evolution can be seen and charted with things like the flu virus.  You can literally watch it change as the years go by...

Many bacteria are evolving to become immune to the antibiotics we use to fight them.  This has led to doctors prescribing antibiotics less often, etc...

You have to be blind to not see evidence of evolution everywhere you look!

This is exactly my point. Natural selection happened back at the beginning when everything was set into its "orbit." Natural selection is the selecting done by Whoever programmed the cause and effect to act as it has down through all ages.

The basic trouble with people who understand that God exists - the ones in the churches and religions, I mean - even though they call Him the almighty, they usually don't have the slightest clue as to how immensely powerful He is. You are now smarter than most of the theists in the churches. You have now seen how God cast everything into its cause and effect path, and ages after He did it, the cause and effect is still producing complexity as great as the brain and mind and intelligence of mankind.

I kinda wish I could play pool that well.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 12:13:44 AM
 #4391


Another ad-hominem attack. Do you have a wider set of logical fallacies that you prefer, or do you just stick with special pleading and ad-hominem attacks?



Obviously, you are not very interested. If you were, you would go out and do your own investigating.

Smiley


Then please don't post information you don't understand and for which you cannot provide proof.

The fun and interesting part about this thread is conversation and discussion, but you just want to monolog.



First, I haven't done any ad-hominem regarding you. You have done them to yourself by expressing that you are ignorant when you are not. I am
simply repeating them a little more directly. So, I am not attacking. I am simply pointing out your own self-attacks.

Yes, you are. A reminder, since you cut it form the conversation above:



Just curious. Do you do your own keyboard work when you post in this forum? The reason I ask is, the keyboard work seems to be a lot better than the thinking that is behind what you say.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not tearing down your character. I'm simply saying it like it is. Low IQ isn't something that is bad. It is what it is. That's all. You are a wonderful human being, I'm sure, even though you seem to have such an inability to handle navigating this forum... or whatever your problem is.

Smiley



Why do you post information that tears down understanding and knowledge? As I have said, I say again.
Science proves the existence of God.
Science proves the non-existence of fundamental evolution.
Science is mixed with fiction which is called theory in science.

All you need to do is investigate these, and you will see that they are the truth.

I only post questions which you can't answer. If one can't teach, explain a point or at the very least discuss a topic without getting confused and changing the subject, then one shouldn't place ones self in the role of a pedagogue.


Of course, why should I be surprised that there are people ho are spreading lies like you are? Such people have been around almost from the beginning.

Smiley

You have posted a simple baseless lie here. OTOH I haven't lied about anything - I have simply asked you for proof for your assertions.

In fact, I always ask you for proof of your assertions and I rarely post anything else in this thread. So far, when I do, you have simply changed the subject, made up nonsense, or resorted to name calling.


Look. I am not posting with the idea that I am out to defame you in any way. And I suspect that you are not out to do such to me.

The things that I explain in my posts, mostly are the simple explanations. You don't have to believe me, obviously. But if you are interested in some of it, there are libraries full of books and an Internet that has almost as much. In addition, there are my previous posts, many of which have links in them, or instructions about what to search on to see why I say what I do.

This posting is fun. And it is instructional for all who want to take part. But I am not doing it with the idea of writing a book to explain answers to your questions.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 12:27:05 AM
 #4392

"Stupidity is a snake biting when touched."

Do you know why Satan was sent to hell?

Satan accused God of making a poor moral decision.  Satan's movement had a rapid following... quickly, a full 1/3 of all the angels were in support of Satan, opposing God.  God, realizing he was about to lose the majority, silenced the movement by banishing Satan and 1/3 of all the angels to hell.  God did not give Satan a trial, or even a chance to defend himself before being banished for eternity... (reference: Revelation 12:3-12)

Would you call that justice, or good basis for morality?  I call it tyranny!

God is perfect. Not only was He right in the things that He did, the things that Satan may have accused Him of making a mistake in, but He was right in casting Satan and his hordes out.

However, God is so immensely powerful that, regarding Himself, All the angels of all the Heavens could have done nothing to come close to harming Him in the least.

The thing that God has always been trying to do is save some of the AI machines He has made, both angels and mankind.

Do you know why God made the good angels to be virtual servants and protectors of mankind? I mean, angels are far greater than people. Why not let angels rule? But God has made them to be servants of people. Why has He done this?


It is because ALL the angels questioned God's judgment... not only the ones who are being destroyed. The good angels should have been destroyed just for questioning. God in mercy gave them a second chance by helping to save mankind.

That's why your powerful guardian angel who is invisible to you is protecting you. By attempting to get you to believe in the salvation of Jesus and so be saved, he (your angel) himself is partaking in that same salvation, which he couldn't have otherwise, because Jesus came for mankind, not for the angels.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 12:47:17 AM
 #4393


Another ad-hominem attack. Do you have a wider set of logical fallacies that you prefer, or do you just stick with special pleading and ad-hominem attacks?



Obviously, you are not very interested. If you were, you would go out and do your own investigating.

Smiley


Then please don't post information you don't understand and for which you cannot provide proof.

The fun and interesting part about this thread is conversation and discussion, but you just want to monolog.



First, I haven't done any ad-hominem regarding you. You have done them to yourself by expressing that you are ignorant when you are not. I am
simply repeating them a little more directly. So, I am not attacking. I am simply pointing out your own self-attacks.

Yes, you are. A reminder, since you cut it form the conversation above:



Just curious. Do you do your own keyboard work when you post in this forum? The reason I ask is, the keyboard work seems to be a lot better than the thinking that is behind what you say.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am not tearing down your character. I'm simply saying it like it is. Low IQ isn't something that is bad. It is what it is. That's all. You are a wonderful human being, I'm sure, even though you seem to have such an inability to handle navigating this forum... or whatever your problem is.

Smiley



Why do you post information that tears down understanding and knowledge? As I have said, I say again.
Science proves the existence of God.
Science proves the non-existence of fundamental evolution.
Science is mixed with fiction which is called theory in science.

All you need to do is investigate these, and you will see that they are the truth.

I only post questions which you can't answer. If one can't teach, explain a point or at the very least discuss a topic without getting confused and changing the subject, then one shouldn't place ones self in the role of a pedagogue.


Of course, why should I be surprised that there are people ho are spreading lies like you are? Such people have been around almost from the beginning.

Smiley

You have posted a simple baseless lie here. OTOH I haven't lied about anything - I have simply asked you for proof for your assertions.

In fact, I always ask you for proof of your assertions and I rarely post anything else in this thread. So far, when I do, you have simply changed the subject, made up nonsense, or resorted to name calling.


Look. I am not posting with the idea that I am out to defame you in any way. And I suspect that you are not out to do such to me.

The things that I explain in my posts, mostly are the simple explanations. You don't have to believe me, obviously. But if you are interested in some of it, there are libraries full of books and an Internet that has almost as much. In addition, there are my previous posts, many of which have links in them, or instructions about what to search on to see why I say what I do.

This posting is fun. And it is instructional for all who want to take part. But I am not doing it with the idea of writing a book to explain answers to your questions.

Smiley


The problem is not that I"don't believe" you. It's true that I don't accept statements that I can show to be either invalid or unproveable.

The problem is that while you think that what you're posting is a simple explanation, I have been showing you that your underlying assumptions appear invalid and warrant further discussion.

It's not unusual for people to not realise how many assumptions are required to support a point of view, and it's one of the reasons that "common sense" regularly leads people astray. For example, if you use "common sense" when you mine bitcoin, you'll fall for the gambler's fallacy every time.

If I question something you hold as self evident, take a moment to really think about your point. Think about the assumptions you've had to make in order to believe your statement, and decide for yourself whether or not they are true, and then how to prove that truth.

If any statement you make as a self evident fact is based on concepts that are:
* Not not completely understood by you
* Not able to be proven by you
* In principle not falsifiable

then you shouldn't post the ideas as self evident fact. It doesn't hurt to let people know that you don't really understand a topic (for example the genetics probability quote) but that you think it's interesting anyway. However if you post it as fact, then of course you will be questioned about it, and you shouldn't take offense.








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February 04, 2016, 08:47:12 AM
 #4394


Look. I am not posting with the idea that I am out to defame you in any way. And I suspect that you are not out to do such to me.

The things that I explain in my posts, mostly are the simple explanations. You don't have to believe me, obviously. But if you are interested in some of it, there are libraries full of books and an Internet that has almost as much. In addition, there are my previous posts, many of which have links in them, or instructions about what to search on to see why I say what I do.

This posting is fun. And it is instructional for all who want to take part. But I am not doing it with the idea of writing a book to explain answers to your questions.

Smiley


The problem is not that I"don't believe" you. It's true that I don't accept statements that I can show to be either invalid or unproveable.

The problem is that while you think that what you're posting is a simple explanation, I have been showing you that your underlying assumptions appear invalid and warrant further discussion.
Since I haven't seen you showing me anything via your posting, and since I haven't been posting any underlying assumptions that I have, your statements here are irrelevant for me, at least regarding the things I have posted.


It's not unusual for people to not realise how many assumptions are required to support a point of view, and it's one of the reasons that "common sense" regularly leads people astray. For example, if you use "common sense" when you mine bitcoin, you'll fall for the gambler's fallacy every time.

If I question something you hold as self evident, take a moment to really think about your point. Think about the assumptions you've had to make in order to believe your statement, and decide for yourself whether or not they are true, and then how to prove that truth.

If any statement you make as a self evident fact is based on concepts that are:
* Not not completely understood by you
* Not able to be proven by you
* In principle not falsifiable
Now you are talking about all of life, science, knowledge and everything else.

If you had never made any kind of mistake in life, if everything had always turned out exactly according to your vision about things, then you MIGHT be able to live truthfully with these three points you have made here.

However, even then you might not, except that you had all knowledge and understanding about everything.

Why would it be different for anyone else? Good points and thoughts. But irrelevant regarding reality.


then you shouldn't post the ideas as self evident fact. It doesn't hurt to let people know that you don't really understand a topic (for example the genetics probability quote) but that you think it's interesting anyway. However if you post it as fact, then of course you will be questioned about it, and you shouldn't take offense.

You are welcome to this opinion of yours, of course. Since you are not following your own advice/directive not to post, welcome to the team of ignorance. It certainly doesn't seem to hurt me when you let people know that you really don't understand a topic. Perhaps it hurts someone else? Maybe even yourself. If it does, I am not aware of it.

If your point is that I am wrong, perhaps I am. However, based on the evidence that can be found by anyone who wants to search for it, I am right. For example, perhaps sometime someone will post conclusive facts that show that Newton's 3rd Law is wrong. So far we haven't seen it. All we might have seen are some theories that suggest opposition to his 3rd Law.

I haven't seen you posting anything to refute the things that I have said in the same way that you want me to post things that uphold what I have said. You haven't even been telling me that such things exist so that I have opportunity to go look for them.

Your whole talk is irrelevant. Albeit, it is an exercise in wasting time responding.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 09:03:43 AM
 #4395

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

Quote
In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

Smiley

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

You can't give proof. That's stupid if you could prove God's existence, there would be no need of having faith in Him.

The important thing is to be honest with your own feelings. If you have the faith, then you should cherish it and live regarding it. If you don't, then it's not your fault and you shouldn't be judged for that.

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BADecker
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February 04, 2016, 09:48:00 AM
 #4396

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

Quote
In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

Smiley

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

You can't give proof. That's stupid if you could prove God's existence, there would be no need of having faith in Him.

The important thing is to be honest with your own feelings. If you have the faith, then you should cherish it and live regarding it. If you don't, then it's not your fault and you shouldn't be judged for that.

This is faulty thinking. For example. You know that I exist. The proof that I exist lies in the fact that you see my post in this forum.

If, on the other hand, I say that I have 20 children, you might have to take me on faith, if you do not know me personally.

In a similar way, we can know that God exists as a fact. If we know it as fact, there isn't any room for having faith in His existence.

But we need to have faith that He will save us for eternal life in Heaven when He tells us  this. Why? Because we haven't seen it happen yet. We don't know that it will happen, except that God has told us that it will happen. We either have faith in Him for this salvation, or we don't.

That God exists is fact. We might have to take something that He says, or some attribute about Him, on faith.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 10:50:27 AM
 #4397


This is not a fact but an almost impossible act to follow. It's like trying to touch the horizon. You can't. But you have a path to follow, a direction the needle of your inner compass will point to... Some people have it naturally, others need guidance and a reminder why they are more than a animal, IF they chose to...

Same with judging. you cannot NOT judge at every moment, every time you breathe... Since those "orders" are impossible to follow to the letter, being the nature of human we will forever be sinners... I haven't open a bible in centuries but that is how I interpreted it.... I could be wrong, of course.



+1
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February 04, 2016, 11:53:07 AM
 #4398


BitNow and BADecker have a long history of vigorous debate in this thread. Usually about pointless and completely unprovable topics, so their conversation usually just peters out to a quiet and cranky stalemate.


Foolness is blamed all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Wisdom is the opposite of foolness and is praised all over the Bible especially in the Book of Proverbs which I quoted.

Foolness and Simplicity often goes together and Simplicity carry beauty most of the times.

"Stupidity is a snake biting when touched."

Only Wisdom leads to Science.

Thomas A.Edison Vs Nikola Tesla.


Best regards.


I don't think BADecker meant to annoy you quite that much. I think you probably agree more than you disagree, so you calling him a fool is a bit over the top IMO.



"He's talking but his words have no meaning"

You really want to carry over this thing user BADecker?!?


Best regards.


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February 04, 2016, 12:59:00 PM
 #4399

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

Quote
In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

Smiley

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

You can't give proof. That's stupid if you could prove God's existence, there would be no need of having faith in Him.

The important thing is to be honest with your own feelings. If you have the faith, then you should cherish it and live regarding it. If you don't, then it's not your fault and you shouldn't be judged for that.

This is faulty thinking. For example. You know that I exist. The proof that I exist lies in the fact that you see my post in this forum.

If, on the other hand, I say that I have 20 children, you might have to take me on faith, if you do not know me personally.

In a similar way, we can know that God exists as a fact. If we know it as fact, there isn't any room for having faith in His existence.

But we need to have faith that He will save us for eternal life in Heaven when He tells us  this. Why? Because we haven't seen it happen yet. We don't know that it will happen, except that God has told us that it will happen. We either have faith in Him for this salvation, or we don't.

That God exists is fact. We might have to take something that He says, or some attribute about Him, on faith.

Smiley

Poor reasoning here. If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will? Then how could He test us?
He couldn't judge us because some would be frightened of Him, other would love Him, but actions would be the same.

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February 04, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
 #4400


Look. I am not posting with the idea that I am out to defame you in any way. And I suspect that you are not out to do such to me.

The things that I explain in my posts, mostly are the simple explanations. You don't have to believe me, obviously. But if you are interested in some of it, there are libraries full of books and an Internet that has almost as much. In addition, there are my previous posts, many of which have links in them, or instructions about what to search on to see why I say what I do.

This posting is fun. And it is instructional for all who want to take part. But I am not doing it with the idea of writing a book to explain answers to your questions.

Smiley


The problem is not that I"don't believe" you. It's true that I don't accept statements that I can show to be either invalid or unproveable.

The problem is that while you think that what you're posting is a simple explanation, I have been showing you that your underlying assumptions appear invalid and warrant further discussion.

Since I haven't seen you showing me anything via your posting, and since I haven't been posting any underlying assumptions that I have, your statements here are irrelevant for me, at least regarding the things I have posted.

That's the point - you don't even know what your underlying assumptions are, and I'm trying to find out if they are valid or not. If not valid, your entire argument disappears in a puff of logic.

It's not unusual for people to not realise how many assumptions are required to support a point of view, and it's one of the reasons that "common sense" regularly leads people astray. For example, if you use "common sense" when you mine bitcoin, you'll fall for the gambler's fallacy every time.

If I question something you hold as self evident, take a moment to really think about your point. Think about the assumptions you've had to make in order to believe your statement, and decide for yourself whether or not they are true, and then how to prove that truth.

If any statement you make as a self evident fact is based on concepts that are:
* Not not completely understood by you
* Not able to be proven by you
* In principle not falsifiable

Now you are talking about all of life, science, knowledge and everything else.



Absolutely not. I'm talking about how to argue your point logically and create a watertight argument.

then you shouldn't post the ideas as self evident fact. It doesn't hurt to let people know that you don't really understand a topic (for example the genetics probability quote) but that you think it's interesting anyway. However if you post it as fact, then of course you will be questioned about it, and you shouldn't take offense.

You are welcome to this opinion of yours, of course. Since you are not following your own advice/directive not to post, welcome to the team of ignorance. It certainly doesn't seem to hurt me when you let people know that you really don't understand a topic. Perhaps it hurts someone else? Maybe even yourself. If it does, I am not aware of it.


When you're challenged you change the topic and make some sort of remark denigrating the intelligence of your opponent. You always do this. Maybe you should concentrate more on your own intellectual development and less time on writing uncreative and pointless insults.

If your point is that I am wrong, perhaps I am.

My point is that neither of us knows if you are wrong because once challenged you just change the subject and insult whoever is the target du jour.

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