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Author Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion?  (Read 900229 times)
BADecker
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February 04, 2016, 06:02:03 PM
 #4421


Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!


You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.



Best regards.

No. You only have free will to decide not to believe in Him. However, if your free will is weak enough, the Holy spirit can work faith in your heart.

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February 04, 2016, 06:03:58 PM
 #4422

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.


Can you read?  I refuted that claim in the post you quoted, I even underlined it to make it easy for you...

"He could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!"

Now that you understand that there is faultiness in being an atheist, use your free will to change. If you don't, it is your fault, not God's.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:04:38 PM
 #4423


The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?


Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.


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February 04, 2016, 06:09:02 PM
 #4424


That's the point - you don't even know what your underlying assumptions are, and I'm trying to find out if they are valid or not. If not valid, your entire argument disappears in a puff of logic.
Now, that's quite presumptuous of you, suggesting that I don't know what my underlying assumptions are. Cheesy It seems that you can barely stay on point. Are you a mind reader that you know my underlying assumptions enough so that you can examine them? If you happen to know my underlying assumptions, are you so foolish that you think that you can judge their validity fairly?


Your underlying assumption is that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that everybody is waiting for.

There are no scientific nor historical proofs of the existence of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

We need to understand what we are talking about:
1. Faith (Christianity): faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah
2. Faith in monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam): faith in God of the Old Testament.

I'm using the word Faith differently as I approach a Christian a Muslim or a Jew: I just discovered it now.


Best regards.

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

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February 04, 2016, 06:12:28 PM
 #4425


Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Smiley

Go to tell this to a hebrew person: I bed he/she will laugh at your face.

Or maybe not: but that's not a proof, it's a hope.


Best regards.



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February 04, 2016, 06:12:57 PM
 #4426


So, how does one carry or carry over the atheist sin?   Smiley

Can we decide first to do or not to do, then decide how to do it?!?


Best regards.

Perhaps if I understood what you mean by carry or carry over, I might be able to make an informed decision about whether or not I should carry or carry over something.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:14:26 PM
 #4427

If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will?
God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning.

Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him.

Then how could He test us?
God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.

...the area of free will...

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

Well, that isn't quite the way God has it expressed all over the Bible. From https://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will:
Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 640 helpful votes

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15 ESV / 209 helpful votes

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17 ESV / 164 helpful votes

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20 ESV / 141 helpful votes

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 121 helpful votes

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
John 1:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 ESV / 73 helpful votes

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Genesis 2:16-17 ESV / 72 helpful votes

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

...

There are many more passages at the site listed. Many of the passages express how God gives us free will.

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Smiley

Did you even read any of those bible quotes before posting them?  Not a single one has anything to do with "free will"

You read them all? but didn't think about them? Every one of them has to do with freewill.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:17:33 PM
 #4428


The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?


Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.

But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:20:31 PM
 #4429


But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley

Science cannot be atheists: Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.

"What you are trying to describe here is a sin not Science."


Best regards.


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February 04, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
 #4430


Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Smiley

Go to tell this to a hebrew person: I bed he/she will laugh at your face.

Or maybe not: but that's not a proof, it's a hope.


Best regards.



Actually, there are many Jewish Christians around... or should I say Christian Jews. They may be only a small percentage of all the Jews. But there are many.

When you study about the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will find that in the area where the Scrolls were found, there has been found a cache of fragments of the New Testament which have been dated to before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. These New Testament fragments were originally preserved by Jews. The whole N.T. had its beginning with people who were Jews.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAp6KUwEBZs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljv4eKEHYD4 and https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Mark-Qumran-fragments to see more about this.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:42:00 PM
 #4431


But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley

Science cannot be atheists: Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.

"What you are trying to describe here is a sin not Science."


Best regards.

Okay. Call it pseudoscience. You still have to talk in a language that they understand if you want to communicate with them.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 06:44:44 PM
 #4432

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Have you read that little header above each of the gospels?

When were they written, according to your own bible? (many bibles give dates)

The earliest (Mark) is supposedly written 40 years after "Jesus" died, the latter ones as late as 140AD, over 100 years after Jesus died... now add 20 years since they were not children when they met Jesus...

Given the average lifespan was around 30 years at the time, I find it hard to believe that these 60-140 year old men wrote accurate accounts of what happened 40-100 years earlier...

How well do you remember events from 40+ years ago?
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February 04, 2016, 06:58:33 PM
 #4433

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Have you read that little header above each of the gospels?

When were they written, according to your own bible? (many bibles give dates)

The earliest (Mark) is supposedly written 40 years after "Jesus" died, the latter ones as late as 140AD, over 100 years after Jesus died... now add 20 years since they were not children when they met Jesus...

Given the average lifespan was around 30 years at the time, I find it hard to believe that these 60-140 year old men wrote accurate accounts of what happened 40-100 years earlier...

How well do you remember events from 40+ years ago?

Assuming that the headers accurately mean what you say that they do, with God nothing is impossible. The Holy spirit can bring all memory alive in those that He wants to.

Smiley

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February 04, 2016, 07:10:44 PM
 #4434


Actually, there are many Jewish Christians around... or should I say Christian Jews. They may be only a small percentage of all the Jews. But there are many.

When you study about the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will find that in the area where the Scrolls were found, there has been found a cache of fragments of the New Testament which have been dated to before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. These New Testament fragments were originally preserved by Jews. The whole N.T. had its beginning with people who were Jews.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAp6KUwEBZs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljv4eKEHYD4 and https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Mark-Qumran-fragments to see more about this.

Smiley

"Free info... awesome!"

Thank You.


Best regards.


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February 04, 2016, 07:19:09 PM
 #4435


Let me tell you something, as a theology major, that is: theology is nonsense. And I can and am allowed to say that because mine is an informed opinion. I'm not just talking out of my ass. And after 5 years my opinion (doesn't have to be yours too) is that it's just a bunch of hooey. How easy it is to make nonsense up, make people believe it, and then live out of people's ignorance. It's genius!

Perhaps if you had been a spiritual major, all that theology would have made some sense to you. Too bad. All that training, and what good did it do you. Essentially none... at least in the ways that are worth anything of eternal value.

Go study science with a focus on finding out how cause and effect, complex universe, and universal entropy combine to prove the existence of God. Then go back and review your theological training. You just might come to understand that even you can be saved for eternal life in pleasure and joy.

Smiley

Yeah - it took me 5 years of studying theology to finally understand that it's all nonsense. That's my opinion, please respect it, I'll respect your and that's it. Don't force your ideas upon others. Go be with Jesus.

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February 04, 2016, 07:20:50 PM
 #4436

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

Quote
In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

Many Jews of Jesus' day converted to Christianity. This included Jewish priests and scribes. These people are of a kind who diligently keep and uphold records. They attest to the validity of the New Testament by their tradition of flawlessly handing down the N.T. eye witness reports.

If that wasn't enough, you can see by the evidence of all the Christians that are around, that the Holy spirit is working faith in their hearts. This faith is based on the person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus is real. He is alive in Heaven. He will return to earth in the same way his disciples saw Him go into Heaven. Jesus could return at any time.

However, if Jesus doesn't return for 10,000 years, for you He will return shortly. Why? Because after you die sometime in the next few years, the next thing you will see after your death, is Jesus calling you out of the grave. For you it will seem like He came rather quickly.

Smiley

I'm sure Jesus is alive in heaven but He's not here on earth. And we, here, on earth, deal in real, objective, palpable things.

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February 04, 2016, 07:22:45 PM
 #4437


I'm sure Jesus is alive in heaven but He's not here on earth. And we, here, on earth, deal in real, objective, palpable things.

Can we at least agree on the God of the Old Testament before coming to the one in the New Testament?


Best regards.


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eon89
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February 04, 2016, 07:23:10 PM
 #4438

Jesus is the rock.
I am founded on Jesus.
Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock...
You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ.

Hate to break it to you, but Jesus is a myth...

Quote
In his book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt," Dr. Richard Carrier argues that the euhemerism of the mystical Jesus is a likely explanation of the myth of Jesus.

DEBATE on the Historicity of Jesus - Dr. Richard Carrier vs Trent Horn

There is literally zero historical evidence of this Jesus character... which is VERY suspicious...

Granted, we don't know much about the average guy who lived 2000 years ago, but this was not an average guy... We know lots about famous people of the time, like Julius Caesar...

No historian wrote about Jesus (and some were alive at the time)... Don't try mentioning Josephus, that was 70 years after Jesus died, and a proven forgery of the 3rd century (the text changed 200 years after Josephus wrote it)... There is not a single non-biblical account of "Jesus"

There is not a single object directly related to Jesus... he was a carpenter for 30 years... where are all the chairs and tables made by Jesus?  He must have made tens of thousands of wooden objects if he was a carpenter...

Jesus is a conglomeration of various myths which had been floating around the Mediterranean region for centuries... its quite well documented

And again, +1 for science. But I'm sure the rock guy will find another irrelevant, nothing to do with reality argument to answer. Because he wants to "save us". I mean, no one asked him to, because from what I'm seeing people are asking to be left alone, but no. He has a mission. He's a rock. Stubborn as a rock. Mind as a rock? Let us ponder on this brothers and sisters.

Science is absolutely great. God made it, and we get to use it. It proves God, and it proves those who say that God does not exist to be liars. Up with God and science. Down with those who believe science theory is the truth.

Smiley

You've said a lot of things but still haven't seen any concrete proof. You've said that you've proven something but I've only seen words. Show us the proof man. God exists because God exists is not proof. It's just you saying "God exists".
And I say "Star Wars exists and it's great!".

Just for you, friend. I'll say it again, and I have said it many times before. But you will have to think about it a little.

There are 3 points that prove the existence of God. There may be more. But these 3 will do it.
1. Cause and effect, which is really an expansion on Newton's 3rd Law.
2. Complex universe.
3. Universal entropy.


Cause and effect almost proves God all by itself. Consider that everything operates by cause and effect. Nothing that exists or acts, exists or acts except that something causes it to exist or act. This is basic, foundational science. And it is a law - Newton's 3rd - because it is evident all over the place in everything, and there has been nothing found that refutes it (although there are some guesses and theories that might refute it).

In other words, things happen because something made them happen, and we see nothing that started things happening in the first place.

How great universal cause and effect is, can be shown by the example of the pool/billiards professional. The pool professional announces what his shot is going to be, and the pocket the ball is going to toll into. Then he takes his shot. He hits the cue ball, which hits a second ball, which hits a third ball, which hits a fourth ball, which knocks the fifth ball into the prescribed pocket. This professional is quite good.

Whatever caused the universe, bumped untold numbers of electrons, and all kinds of other particles, and all kinds of energies, so that they bumped other electrons and things and energies, some 13 billion years ago (if scientists are near correct), which cause 13 billions of years of countless countless cause and effect reactions, that resulted in the complexity of mankind, and the complexity of the rest of the universe.

A good pool shark might be able to do the 5-ball thing now and again. If it was the Big Bang that started the universe, the Big Bang was so extremely smart that it made great complexity, including mankind and his mind - and spirit and soul if you believe in those things - after what seem to be 13 billion years of seemingly random cause and effect actions (which absolutely could not be random to make the complexity). If they were random, prehistoric man would have made jet planes long ago, and modern living would be a whole lot different.

Think of it. Think of all the photons that were caused, and all the activities they caused by their actions. And we are only talking about the simple universe that we know exists through astronomy. What about all the dimensional activity that we barely know anything about? All of it operating through cause and effect set off by whatever started everything going some 13 billion years ago (if you want to believe the accuracy of the accepted age of the earth).

This whole thing was pre-programmed! We see nothing other than cause and effect making things happen. And now, after 13 billion years, that cause and effect makes gigantic complexity. Whatever makes this complexity, must be even more complex... must have super-complex mind and spirit and intelligence to do things so far beyond what a pool shark could do.

When you add the fact of universal entropy (as far as we can see, and without being able to see anything opposite of entropy), Whatever the Thing was that started all this, doesn't seem to be doing much in a great way right now. Cause and effect suggests that it all was stated way back in the beginning.

The thing that started everything going in the pre-programmed fashion that it exists in, fits our definition of the word "God." In fact, our word "God" is way too limited to comprehend what the Being must be like. Yes, Being. Because He/It made us beings, and therefore had to be at least a being to comprehend what we would be like today, from the vantage point of 13 billion years ago.

Think about this, because my little writing here in no way does God justice. Volumes could be written expressing what I have said here. And it is all withing the realm of our scientific understanding.

Smiley

You keep talking about things that are in nature, but still nothing concrete, real, that I can see beyond doubt.

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February 04, 2016, 07:25:25 PM
 #4439

Validity of the new testament is attested by tradition and eye reports? I mean you're joking right?

Much (maybe most) of the New Testament is eye-witness reports. The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does, being backed by people who hang onto tradition (Christians of Israelite ancestry) more than they hold onto life itself. Their tradition is that the New Testament is truth.

Smiley

The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does??
What does that even mean?
Something is because something is? The fact that the Harry Potter exists (it is written) doesn't mean the accounts in it are true.
And tradition and word of mouth are not proof.

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February 04, 2016, 07:27:52 PM
 #4440


The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does??
What does that even mean?
Something is because something is? The fact that the Harry Potter exists (it is written) doesn't mean the accounts in it are true.
And tradition and word of mouth are not proof.

I quote that.

Can we agree on the God of the Old Testament: is the God of the Old Testament the same of all 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)?


Best regards.


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