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Author Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion?  (Read 878885 times)
CoinCube
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October 11, 2018, 03:27:25 PM
 #8161

* How can we find release from suffering and sadness?

I would recommend looking into Theravada Buddhism... they have correctly diagnosed the cause of suffering and lay out a path to cure yourself from it

Other than the occasional mention of reincarnation, it is more of a science based philosophy than a religion.  Think of it as a self-help manual

Here is a fantastic example, I would highly recommend watching this video to anyone and everyone:
Ajahn Brahm - Freeing Our Minds From The Mental Prisons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_FsPEwOB0

Watched the beginning looks interesting will watch the rest later.

I have nothing bad to say about Buddhism. I am not particularly familiar with all of its tennents but I have met some wise Buddhists in my life.

About nihilism, however I have lots of bad things to say. I debated the topic here: Debate on Nihilism.

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October 11, 2018, 03:36:08 PM
 #8162


You asked questions about one particular life form then you are surprised the answers are rooted in Biology?

Ask me anything about any non-living thing and the answers will be rooted in Physics or Chemistry.

I gave you our life purpose and meaning.

Yes I did and to your credit you answered straightforwardly and in a manner that lets us cut to the heart of the issue.

We saw that at the center of your belief structure once we slip past the rings of scientific thought lies a belief a faith in nihilism. Similarly we could do the same for me and once past the science we would find theism.

That fundamental difference makes sense and explains our prolonged argument over these many pages and threads. A robotic individual with a wholly scientific perspective would have no interest or motivation to participate in such a debate. Is it currently empirically testable they would ask? If the answer was no they would shrug their shoulders say they had no idea and move on to other topics that could be tested.

There are, however, many questions that matter deeply to us that are not empirically testable. I highlighted a few above but there are many many others. This is why a foundational religion or philosophy is an inescapable necessity if we are going to interact with the world.

Some foundational philosophies are mutually exclusive. When proponents of such philosophies meet clashes and conflict is expected which is exactly what we see.


I agree.  I bet if I ask you what is the purpose of bees your answer will be different than mine.

You see my position as too simplistic.

I see your delving for some supernatural cause that physically is not there as being deluded.


Yes and thus we reach the end of the road.

Our differences are revealled to be ultimately not scientific in nature but directly traceable to different empirically untestable and mutually exclusive a priori truths.

BadDecker would say we have different religious. I think that word has too much potential for misunderstanding and would instead say that we have different faiths.

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October 11, 2018, 04:18:07 PM
Last edit: October 11, 2018, 05:10:08 PM by CoinCube
 #8163


I don't care if you call me a nihilist or science a faith.  Your framing is based on your delusional worldview, IMHO.

It does not change the fact that science is not faith and I am not a nihilist.

Here is a description of what nihilist assume about the nature of existence. What if anything do you feel is false?

Nihilism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
Quote from: Wikipedia
Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ(h)ɪlɪzəm, ˈniː-/; from Latin nihil, meaning 'nothing') is the philosophicalviewpoint that suggests the denial or lack of belief towards the reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that there is no inherent morality, and that accepted moral values are abstractly contrived.

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October 11, 2018, 05:16:15 PM
 #8164


I don't care if you call me a nihilist or science a faith.  Your framing is based on your delusional worldview, IMHO.

It does not change the fact that science is not faith and I am not a nihilist.

Here is a description of what nihilist assume about the nature of existence. What if anything do you feel is false?

Nihilism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
Quote from: Wikipedia
Nihilism (/ˈnaɪ(h)ɪlɪzəm, ˈniː-/; from Latin nihil, meaning 'nothing') is the philosophicalviewpoint that suggests the denial or lack of belief towards the reputedly meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.[1] Moral nihilists assert that there is no inherent morality, and that accepted moral values are abstractly contrived.

Sounds like the only thing that keeps a nihilist going is an an optimistic focus on the pessimism of his nihilism.

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October 11, 2018, 05:45:15 PM
 #8165

I hate religion because it divides people into groups. The division then fractures our society and gives a big advantage to those who belong to the in-groups while it pushes atheists out.

There's multiple churches and programs for religious people to just walk into and socialize, work-out make friends, and all of that shit is tax free (therefore they get a tax-advantage compared to me) and all I get is the knowledge that I'm not foolish enough to believe in fairy-tales.

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October 11, 2018, 09:34:10 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2018, 02:13:43 AM by CoinCube
 #8166

...
I think nihilism of the 19th century does not fit the humanist Atheist positions of today.

You are painting Atheists with Nietzsche's brush.  Anyone who does not subscribe to your religious worldview must be a nihilist.  That is your mistake.
...
I think you are stuck in the past, both with your religious and philosophical readings.

Nietzsche's was a very smart man tormented but smart.

I would never claim all atheist are nihilist that is clearly untrue. Some Buddhists for example are atheist.  There can certainly be variety in belief.

Thus if you say there is some subtlety to your views that is incompatible with nihilism I will take you at your word though to be honest I have yet to see any fundamental difference between your expressed views so far at those of nihilism.

To not fall into the category of nihilism there would need to be some fundamental incompatibility between your worldview and that of nihilism excluding you from said categorization. You have not made any such conflict clear but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

I far as I can see your logic quickly reduces to nihilistic principles as I noted immediately above.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg46746122#msg46746122

You argued in return that my framing is based on my delusional worldview. Perhaps this is a good place to stop. I feel I have made my case, you do not, and any reader of this thread can decide for themselves.

The final word is yours.

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October 11, 2018, 09:40:04 PM
 #8167

Hate to interrupt guys, but breaking news!

Man Made His Wife Kill Herself So He Could Use Insurance Money to Build Church
http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/10/11/man-made-his-wife-kill-herself-so-he-could-use-insurance-money-to-build-church/

Quote
An Australian man convinced his wife to kill herself so that he could use the $1.4 million in insurance payouts to build a church and a commune for the rapture.

A jury recently concluded that 69-year-old Graham Robert Morant, who wanted to serve as the pastor of the church he would build with the ill-gotten insurance funds, is responsible for the death of his wife, Jennifer Morant. The jury found that Jennifer wouldn’t have committed suicide if not for pressure from her husband.

    Jennifer Morant lived with chronic back pain, and found even the most simple every day tasks difficult, but did not have a terminal illness.

    Her husband persuaded her to take her life over several months by telling her the funds would go towards a commune that would provide a haven from the biblical rapture, where he would be pastor.

    He told police she wanted to die but two witnesses close to her testified she did not want to kill herself and was scared by his pressure on her to do so.

    “I had such a zest and zeal to live. She had such a zest and zeal to die,” Graham Morant told police in an interview.

    Her best friend, Johanna Cornelia Dent, said Jennifer Morant felt the only way to escape death was to win the lottery.

Morant even justified the act of suicide to his wife by claiming God would be totally OK with it.

    Graham Morant told his wife her suicide would not be a sin in God’s eyes because of the financial benefit to their church, her sister, Lynette Anne Lucas, told the jury. He said she would be too weak to survive the rapture, Lucas testified.

    The jury deliberated for a day and a half before reaching its verdict on Tuesday. Members of the public gallery burst into tears after the verdict was handed down.

The jury may have convicted Morant, but the judge has left open the possibility that his sentence might be suspended either completely or in part because he wasn’t considered public risk and hadn’t breached the conditions of his bail.

I hope the judge doesn’t do that, though. Morant deserves punishment for what he did — and depriving him of that could send a green light to others who may be similarly deluded in the name of religion and selfishness. The sentencing phase will begin soon.


discuss...
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October 11, 2018, 10:10:23 PM
 #8168

Hate to interrupt guys, but breaking news!

Man Made His Wife Kill Herself So He Could Use Insurance Money to Build Church
http://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/10/11/man-made-his-wife-kill-herself-so-he-could-use-insurance-money-to-build-church/
Quote
Morant deserves punishment for what he did — and depriving him of that could send a green light to others who may be similarly deluded in the name of religion and selfishness. The sentencing phase will begin soon.
discuss...

End of the article sums up my feelings. Sickening story.

In many ways these types of crimes are the worst of them all. Dennis Prager sums it up well.

The Greatest Sin
 http://www.dennisprager.com/the-greatest-sin/
Quote
There is one sin that may be worse than all other sins. And it is taking place on a large scale today.

There are some religious people who maintain that one cannot declare any sin worse than any other — that a person who takes an office pen is committing as grievous a sin in God’s eyes as a murderer. But most people intuitively, as well as biblically, understand that there are gradations of sin.

Having a background in theology and a lifetime of teaching the Bible from the original Hebrew, I would like to offer evidence for demarcating one sin as worse than all others. Indeed it may be the only sin that God will not forgive:

Committing evil in the name of God.
My basis is the Ten Commandments. The Commandment widely translated as “Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain,” is imprecisely translated. The original Hebrew literally reads, “Do not carry the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”

And, the Commandment continues, “for God will not hold guiltless (literally, “will not cleanse”) whoever carries His name in vain.”

As a strong believer that God (or whomever one credits with authoring the Ten Commandments) has at least as much common sense as I do, it seems inconceivable that God can “cleanse” (implying “forgive”) a murderer but not someone who said God’s name when he shouldn’t have. Therefore, the Commandment about the misuse (“misuse” is the translation of the New International Version of the Bible, my favorite translation) of God’s name must be about far more than merely using God’s name “in vain.”

I admit that I come to this conclusion as a result of my Jewish education. Every yeshiva student learns early in life that the greatest sin is khillul Hashem, public desecration of the Name (of God), and conversely, the greatest mitzvah (commandment, good deed) is kiddush Hashem, public sanctification of the Name. I well remember, for example, one of my rabbis in yeshiva telling us not to go to what were then called “dirty” movies, but if we did go, to take off our yarmulkes first — to enter a dirty movie theater announcing that we were religious Jews would desecrate God’s name.
Imagine, then, how bad committing atrocities in God’s name must be.

Let me explain this in another way.

When a secular person commits evil, it is surely evil, but it doesn’t bring God and religion in disrepute. When a person commits evil in God’s name, however, he destroys the greatest hope for goodness to prevail on earth — widespread belief in a God who demands goodness (ethical monotheism). There is nothing as evil as religious evil.
...
If there is a hell, those who murder and torture the innocent while praising God are surely the first to go there.




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October 11, 2018, 11:49:13 PM
 #8169

Quite simply, I don't like being lied to

I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in ghosts, gremlins, leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, zombies, vampires, bigfoot, angels, demons, crystals, chakras, chi, dowsing, tarot cards, mediums, psychics, and many other human inventions which have zero scientific evidence to support the claim of their existence
I think that's what most atheists answer would be.
But on the other side, they would agree that many religious rules are good, for example ten commandments. But they would like to people to follow such rules not because of fear of being damned but because it's right thing to do, because of morality etc.
I've seen a TV show and priest, when asked if he knows that God and Heaven exist answered, that he only has faith that's true.
He used "faith" in it's 1st meaning:
faith noun (TRUST)

[ U ] a high degree of trust or confidence in something or someone:

[ + that clause ] I have faith that she will do the right thing.
So even some church's people don't take holy books 100% seriously.
Many people believes that holy books were written as a form of law, God, Hell and Heaven was used as motivation to make people follow rules written in them.
Atheists believe that in today, modern world we no longer need these motivators and that many religious rules aren't needed/ good.

So you can say that atheists hate religion because they feel sorry for people that fall prey to religion.

Sorry for not reading 418 Shocked pages of this topic.

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October 12, 2018, 12:05:57 PM
 #8170

I cannot tell why Atheist hate religion because I am not one. I am a Christian an I believe in the existence of God, the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion which could either be rejected or accepted I think Atheist shun the existence of deities because of their belief system and of course every man's belief is his reality. In essence, change your belief change your reality.
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October 12, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
 #8171


You claim that because I base the meaning of life on the life itself that meaning is invalid because the evolution (randomness) is taking place?  Is that what you said?

Which meaning has stronger fundamental rooting, mine based on Biology (that we can test and verify) or yours based on the Bronze Age scripture?  Are you sure you thought this through?  You evaluated 3000+ religious ideologies and determined that Christianity provides the true meaning of life?  If you did, let's hear it.  How did you exclude Egyptian, Hindu, Chinese, Sumerian, Mayan, Aztec and Greek mythologies?
If you have a way to invalidate these other beliefs, you can use the same resoaning to invalidate your religious beliefs.

If you don't have a proof that all other religions are wrong and yours is right, then you just picked your life meaning out of a hat with all religions in it.  It is pure luck that you ended up with Christianity.  If you grew up and lived in Pakistan, you would be Muslim and derive the meaning/purpose of life from Islam.  If you grew up in Guatemala in the 4th century, you would be following Mayan customs and traditions and deriving meaning of life from that.  Do you see a problem?

So please stop calling Biology a faith.  Biology is objective.  All humans work the same way anywhere on the planet.  All people want peace and see their children and grandchildren grow up in peace.  It does not matter if they live in Colombia, Saudi Arabia or Sweden.  It does not matter if they are Muslims, Christians, Jews or Scientologists.  

People who would follow my reasoning and base their purpose in life on Biology would end up with the same conclusions because Biology is the same everywhere you go on this planet and beyond.  Regardless of which book you read from, regardless of which culture you grew up in, or who your parents were.

Which position is more objective, yours or mine?  You searched for objective morality and ended up with subjective reflections of 40+ Bronze Age authors who wrote the Bible.  Science is objective.  Scientific method and peer-reviews make sure of that.

Religions are subjective, a sheer number of Christian denominations is a proof of that.  Even in the same denominations, people cannot agree.  Drill it down, even in some Christian families of the same denomination, people cannot agree on the interpretation of the (subjective) writings of the Bible writers.  Is owning slaves ok?  Is killing gays ok?  Is working on Sabbath bad? Would you sacrifice your son if God asked you?

Morality derived from religions is subjective because people have nothing else to go on but some ancient texts.  So their imagination goes wild.  Just like reading a novel. God does not bother to enlighten them directly.  Guess what? Science can.


Biology isn't objective. The study of it is what can be objective. However, we have so little knowledge of how things work - especially in biology - that our basic conclusions about it approaches religious thinking more than they do objective biology thinking.

How do we know this? We talk about evolution being real, when we don't have even one proof. We talk about being able to live longer by adjusting biology, but we haven't been able to outdo nature for long life, yet.

We are essentially in primitive stages of biology investigation and manipulation. Talking about it like we know more than we do, is turning it into something like religion for us. Why? Because this makes it a faith thing rather than a knowledge thing.

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October 12, 2018, 01:38:10 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2018, 03:01:10 PM by Moloch
 #8172

Quite simply, I don't like being lied to

I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in ghosts, gremlins, leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, zombies, vampires, bigfoot, angels, demons, crystals, chakras, chi, dowsing, tarot cards, mediums, psychics, and many other human inventions which have zero scientific evidence to support the claim of their existence

I think that's what most atheists answer would be.
But on the other side, they would agree that many religious rules are good, for example ten commandments. But they would like to people to follow such rules not because of fear of being damned but because it's right thing to do, because of morality etc.

I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:

First, there are at least 3 distinctly different versions of the ten commandments (Moses broke the first set that "god" wrote without naming those commandments at all... the 2 different lists are from Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21)

The Jews (who wrote the ten commandments) believe in a different list of 10 than the Catholics... the Protestants believe in a different list than either the Jews or Catholics... 3 different lists followed by people who claim they are the infallible word of god (a real god would make sure everyone was on the same page, i.e. used the exact same list)

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me (egotistical, not a complimentary trait for a god)
2) Thou shalt not make idols (why not?  who cares?  more egotistical nonsense)
3) Thou shalt not take god's name in vain (more ego... wow god's ego is HUGE)
4) Honor the sabbath and keep it holy (more ego?)
5) Honor thy father and mother (sounds ok, but some parents do horrible things to children, like rape them, etc)
6) Thou shalt not kill (FINALLY!!!! A GOOD COMMANDMENT!!!!  GO GOD!) (hopefully this second half turns out better than the first half)
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery (does it really matter?  this certainly isn't illegal or anything)
8} Thou shalt not steal (a good rule, but not anything new... god/moses/jews were not the first to have a rule against stealing)
9) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife (thought crimes?  not a good idea)
10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass (redundant... more thought crimes... why not just combine 9 & 10 into "don't covet anything"?... bad bad bad)

Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#The_Ten_Commandments

If god was any good at predicting the future, he would have made commandments like:
"Thou shalt not have sexual relationships with children (talking to you priests)"
or "Thou shalt not own another human being as a slave"
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October 12, 2018, 04:13:08 PM
 #8173

Stay away from that evil Biology you hate so much.  It only stresses you, it is not good for your health.

If you stay away from biology you won't ever fully understand the human condition.

metaphysical - I do not spend one second of my life on philosophy.  Complete waste of time, IMHO.

Similarly if you stay away from metaphysics you won't ever fully understand Biology as you will fail to grasp the assumptions inherent within it.

Suggested further reading:

FUNDAMENTAL UNSOLVED PROBLEMS OF BIOLOGY
https://thewinnower.com/papers/3497-a-teleological-metaphysics-for-biology-hierarchical-purposive-conscious-governing-entities-direct-evolutionary-processes

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October 12, 2018, 05:22:42 PM
 #8174


I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:
...
Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
...

The difference in the commandments between denomiminations is just the choice of how to group the paragraph of commandments listed in the Bible into 10 discrete items. It's not a fundamental difference in content.

I could not disagree more with your analysis. If you want to understand the opposing argument I highly recommend Dennis Prager's excellent video series on the topic. Each video is only 5 minutes long so you may want to start with the commandment you feel is the most "flawed" first if you don't want to watch them all.

The Ten Commandments: What You Should Know

1) I am the Lord Your God

2) No Other Gods

3) Do Not Misuse God's Name

4) Remember the Sabbath

5) Honor Your Father and Mother

6) Do Not Murder

7) Do Not Commit Adultery

8 ) Do Not Steal

9) Do Not Bear False Witness

10) Do Not Covet


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October 12, 2018, 05:32:53 PM
Merited by af_newbie (5)
 #8175


I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:
...
Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
...

The difference in the commandments between denomiminations is just the choice of how to group the paragraph of commandments listed in the Bible into 10 discrete items. It's not a fundamental difference in content.

I could not disagree more with your analysis. If you want to understand the opposing argument I highly recommend Dennis Prager's excellent video series on the topic. Each video is only 5 minutes long so you may want to start with the commandment you feel is the most "flawed" first if you don't want to watch them all.

The Ten Commandments: What You Should Know

1) I am the Lord Your God

2) No Other Gods

3) Do Not Misuse God's Name

4) Remember the Sabbath

5) Honor Your Father and Mother

6) Do Not Murder

7) Do Not Commit Adultery

8 ) Do Not Steal

9) Do Not Bear False Witness

10) Do Not Covet



4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.
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October 12, 2018, 05:59:23 PM
 #8176

I would NOT agree that the ten commandments are good... since you brought it up, lets talk about them:

It was just an example showing that most atheist are willing to act "good" and "moral" without any religious rules telling them to do so.

Only 2 of the ten commandments are even good rules, and both of those were illegal for centuries before the Jews came along and gave credit to god for them

I wont discuss how many of them are good rules because everyone can have different opinion on that.
I don't think it's about giving credit to God, but almighty God and hell is another way to enforce people to follow these rules, to scare them - and this is why atheists hate religions for.


And, if they are such amazing commandments, why do the Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all believe in a different set of 10?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#The_Ten_Commandments

There are many reasons for that, there should be one version of it ideally.

If god was any good at predicting the future, he would have made commandments like:
"Thou shalt not have sexual relationships with children (talking to you priests)"
or "Thou shalt not own another human being as a slave"

Haha, there are only 10 of them, looks like these things are not as important.
And slaves were common, do remember that these commandments are made by Jewish God and targeted at Jews, why Jewish people shouldn't be allowed to have foreign people who don't believe in their God as slaves?

4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.

Killing is not forbidden, murdering is.

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October 12, 2018, 06:06:36 PM
 #8177


4 and 6 are in direct conflict. God himself told people to kill other people if they were working on the sabbath. There is a passage where god makes someone, moises i think to kill someone else because he was gathering sticks on the sabbath.
Checkmate CoinCube.

Exodus 35:2  All mighty has spoken  Grin

Capital punishment under a societies laws for one who has willingly and knowingly violated those laws is not murder.

Similarly executing a rapist or thief if those were the punishments prescribed by law would not be murder.

You can debate the moral merits of the commandments but they are not self-contradictory.

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October 12, 2018, 06:14:58 PM
 #8178


So you think that killing someone today because they worked on Sabbath is not murder?

Since there is no law on the books in the USA that prescribes capital punishment for working on the sabbath yes it would be murder.

Do you think executing a convicted rapist and killer is murder?

Astargath
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October 12, 2018, 06:28:32 PM
 #8179


So you think that killing someone today because they worked on Sabbath is not murder?

Since there is no law on the books in the USA that prescribes capital punishment for working on the sabbath yes it would be murder.
...

So the 10 commandments are contradictory today.

Let's see the next idiotic thing he says now. He wants to defend the bible but he doesn't have the guts to execute someone for working on the sabbath, what a pussy.
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October 12, 2018, 06:30:27 PM
 #8180


So the 10 commandments are contradictory today.

The 10 commandments say nothing about the punishment for violating them. Clearly today there is no immediate worldly punishment for violating many of them.

Other parts of the Bible do describe how the ancient Israelites attempted to enforce them but those are discussed elsewhere.

You seem to be attempting to show that the commandments are bad because they cannot be effectively enforced in modern times. I won't go into the logical flaws of that argument because they are self evident.

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