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Author Topic: ChromaWallet (colored coins): issue and trade private currencies/stocks/bonds/..  (Read 96870 times)
killerstorm (OP)
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September 10, 2013, 11:41:43 PM
 #221

Is the new client ready?   Grin

No. Sad

So far we've got only a command-line proof-of-concept client, not really usable...

But there is a hope we'll get a usable one... In two weeks or so... Smiley

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September 22, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
 #222

dumb question...

how would one go about creating a colored coin?

i want to create a colored coin for my company FakeCo for my thesis and give it away to study how it spreads (FakeCo would also have fake PR and fake earnings announcements, etc)

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September 23, 2013, 05:55:40 AM
 #223

dumb question...

how would one go about creating a colored coin?

i want to create a colored coin for my company FakeCo for my thesis and give it away to study how it spreads (FakeCo would also have fake PR and fake earnings announcements, etc)

Well, if it's all fake, I guess testnet will suite you... The difference is that testnet coins do not cost anything and can be obtained from a faucet; also someone can easily do 51% attack (to double-spend, for example). The advantage of using testnet is that our software is too slow to run on mainnet atm.

So there are three options:

  • ArmoryX: I have no idea if it still can be used on testnet (as it requires old version of bitcoind), but maybe it does. ArmoryX is fairly mature in terms of functionality. (Particularly, p2p trade works.) But might crash from time to time. It requires installation, there are only Windows binaries
  • WebcoinX: it is web based, and presumably easier to use. But it's currently under development, so might be buggy. But, I think, basic functionality like sending and receiving coins works.
  • NGCCC: it is a command-line client, written in Python... probably not what you want

So, WebcoinX: http://bitcoinx.github.io/webcoinx/ (Note that currently there is a bug: you need to reload page after user interface loads, as it isn't initialized properly on the first run)

To issue colored coins, get some coins from a faucet (check 'overview' tab) and then go to 'Issue' tab. Fill the form, and that would be it.

If you would rather use ArmoryX, please let me know.

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September 23, 2013, 01:34:17 PM
 #224

Colored coins as a way to have stock/bonds/... could be a good way to avoid centralization of assets exchange such as BTC-TC, Litecoin-Global...

I hope last crypto stock crisis (BTC-TC and Litecoin-global being forced to close down) will highlight this project

Download free softwares! - crypto mining profit calculator - crypto triangular arbitrage tools - crypto stocks tools...
https://sites.google.com/site/working4coins/
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September 23, 2013, 09:37:16 PM
 #225

dumb question...

how would one go about creating a colored coin?

i want to create a colored coin for my company FakeCo for my thesis and give it away to study how it spreads (FakeCo would also have fake PR and fake earnings announcements, etc)

Well, if it's all fake, I guess testnet will suite you... The difference is that testnet coins do not cost anything and can be obtained from a faucet; also someone can easily do 51% attack (to double-spend, for example). The advantage of using testnet is that our software is too slow to run on mainnet atm.

So there are three options:

  • ArmoryX: I have no idea if it still can be used on testnet (as it requires old version of bitcoind), but maybe it does. ArmoryX is fairly mature in terms of functionality. (Particularly, p2p trade works.) But might crash from time to time. It requires installation, there are only Windows binaries
  • WebcoinX: it is web based, and presumably easier to use. But it's currently under development, so might be buggy. But, I think, basic functionality like sending and receiving coins works.
  • NGCCC: it is a command-line client, written in Python... probably not what you want

So, WebcoinX: http://bitcoinx.github.io/webcoinx/ (Note that currently there is a bug: you need to reload page after user interface loads, as it isn't initialized properly on the first run)

To issue colored coins, get some coins from a faucet (check 'overview' tab) and then go to 'Issue' tab. Fill the form, and that would be it.

If you would rather use ArmoryX, please let me know.

I wrote my comment before the btc-tc news came out. I believe after this people would have more interest in this project.

I have tried to read some of the material but I guess I have some trouble understanding the status and support level for this project.  A few more questions:

1. What do you mean "our software is too slow", which software are you referring to and what do you mean by too slow?  How will this be addressed?

2. Are there known issues that would result in compromised integrity of an issue of colored coin (I think you call it color leakage or dilution in one of the papers)?

3. Are there issues with the way the accounting for colored coins works and harmonization with the bitcoin development path which could put an issue of colored coin at risk?

4. What is being developed now and what is planned?  Is there some other online forum where dialog is taking place?

thanks!

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September 23, 2013, 11:18:15 PM
 #226

An estimate of how much money needs to be thrown at it to get it ready for them to use would probably be useful...

People have been throwing $300,000 a shot at stuff lately it seems, would this be cheaper than that to deploy, do you think?

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September 23, 2013, 11:42:13 PM
 #227

I don't see any bugs/issues open on Github for any of these projects.  If you're looking for external developers to join you should keep a TODO list or a bug tracker somewhere (even if it's just you working on the project for now).
killerstorm (OP)
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September 24, 2013, 09:13:46 AM
 #228

To progress faster, we need more developers.

But not just more developers, we need developers who can participate in design of protocols and architecture, who have opinion on various design considerations, and who can make decisions on their own.

Even though we do have several developers now (working in their free time, i.e. after the day job, on weekends, etc), but only I'm responsible for all planning, design architecture, etc. So it is the bottleneck: when I'm not making a progress, project isn't making a progress.

So in the light of btct.co announcement, it is a pressing issue now. It might be a good opportunity for issuers to switch to colored coins, but software isn't ready yet, and if we won't increase development speed, it will be too late.

There are many competing projects, for example, Bitshare, Freimarkets, Mastercoin.

But with colored coins we had almost-working software back in January of 2013, and design was reviewed by many people, so it might be the best thing to deploy quickly.

Also colored coins is one of few projects which allows trading in Bitcoins directly, with no reliance on 3rd parties.

The only other one I'm aware of is Mastercoin, but Mastercoin's design is often criticized as being immature.

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killerstorm (OP)
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September 24, 2013, 10:08:29 AM
 #229

I wrote my comment before the btc-tc news came out. I believe after this people would have more interest in this project.

Well, I hope so... A year ago there was a lot of interest after GLBSE collapsed, but very few developers contributed to the effort.

I have tried to read some of the material but I guess I have some trouble understanding the status and support level for this project.

We have multiple software projects, and all of them are not quite ready for the mainnet for various reasons.

Also, there is no specification, but design was discussed on the mailing list, and once we finally decide on what to implement in software, it won't be a problem to compile it all into a specification.

1. What do you mean "our software is too slow", which software are you referring to and what do you mean by too slow?  How will this be addressed?

We need to scan the blockchain for transactions involving colored coins, and blockchain is large, so scan takes a lot of time. There are many ways to optimize it, but we didn't implement them yet because of a lack of manpower. Reasons are different for each software project:

1. ArmoryX was slow to initialize, simply because it is Armory. New version of Armory uses a different design, so maybe it would be faster. But it takes several hours to initialize Armory for the first time.

2. WebcoinX is slow because it does backward scan and fetches transactions one by one. There are many ways to optimize the process (particularly, we're going to change coloring scheme to help this), we just haven't had a chance to implement it. But then it scales poorly with a number of colored transactions, we'll have to employ advanced cryptography to make it fast.

3. NGCCC/coloredcoinlib is slow because it scans blockchain via bitcoind's JSON-RPC API, one transaction at time. It will be faster if we grab whole blocks (probably), also use of an external service can drastically speed up the initial scan.

2. Are there known issues that would result in compromised integrity of an issue of colored coin (I think you call it color leakage or dilution in one of the papers)?

Well, a bug in colored coin wallet software can result in destruction of colored coin.

 Same is true for any cryptocurrency software. You know, there are several documented cases where software didn't include change output, and so a large amount was sent as a fee... IIRC it was 200 BTC in one recent case. I.e. somebody lost $20000 worth of Bitcoins just because someone forgot to add one line of code to a script. (Miner returned money in that case.)

Of course, being aware of this problems, we should design our software to prevent them, and add extra checks to prevent problems before shit hits the fan.

Also, we have improved the theoretic model we are using and approach to wallet implementation in May-June, so many of old concerns are no longer relevant.

3. Are there issues with the way the accounting for colored coins works and harmonization with the bitcoin development path which could put an issue of colored coin at risk?

I'm not aware of any problems which can get in the way of the approach I'm currently using (i.e. specifically "order-based coloring" and "padded order-based coloring"). But this issues was brought up in Spring, and I think the best way to address this is to make migration to a different system easy.

The general idea is that it is always possible to identify an owner of a colored coin at a certain block, so it's possible to offer an automatized migration process as owner can be authenticated automatically.

4. What is being developed now and what is planned?

NGCCC and WebcoinX are being developed in parallel.

NGCCC will rely on a local bitcoind, and use external services for speedup. Currently we have some crude prototype (called CCoinDemo), I'm working on making it fast, secure and usable. I'm working on it alone.

I think NGCCC is the shortest path to a secure, independent colored coin client. But it might be somewhat inconvenient as it requires local bitcoind/bitcoin-qt.

(Although it has flexible architecture, so it's probably possible to add an option to use electrum-server.)

WebcoinX is a web client, we are currently working on a testnet demo which will showcase colored coin.

Also we plan to make it secure and make it work on mainnet, but progress is little to non-existent because out of a team we have now only I'm able to work on its core, and I don't have time for this between NGCCC and posting shit on forums.

If more developers will join the effort, plans can change. For example, we can make a colored coin version of Electrum. It all depends on who joins.

Is there some other online forum where dialog is taking place?

There is some discussion in mailing list/google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoinX

But discussion about specifics of development is in email.


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killerstorm (OP)
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September 24, 2013, 11:46:16 AM
 #230

An estimate of how much money needs to be thrown at it to get it ready for them to use would probably be useful...

It's really hard to put a price tag on it, as it depends on many factors.

First, it isn't clear what kind of features is required... It is definitely cheaper to develop simpler software.

But some people absolutely want a web client, and it's messy, we have to make several trade-offs to make it work.

Also, programmer labor costs vary a lot... Hiring someone from California is one thing, hiring someone from India is another.

And we need people well-versed in cryptocurrencies to do this (well, for most important parts), and it's hard to find them available.

People have been throwing $300,000 a shot at stuff lately it seems,

Are you referring to something specific?

would this be cheaper than that to deploy, do you think?

Well, maybe. I currently have an agreement with a sponsor, they are willing to provide $10000 for a colored coin client. I think it's enough.

But I haven't found programmers who can spend significant amounts of time and efforts. (See my other post.) I talked to some people, but nobody said "I can spend 1 month on this if you pay me $xxxx".

Just as a point of reference, this Spring we had a fairly good JS developer working in WebcoinX, he got something like $2000 worth of Bitcoins for 2-3 weeks of work, and made a very basic WebcoinX. (He was making a good progress.) But then he disappeared in June (I suspect something happened with him IRL).

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September 24, 2013, 12:13:51 PM
 #231

I don't see any bugs/issues open on Github for any of these projects.  If you're looking for external developers to join you should keep a TODO list or a bug tracker somewhere (even if it's just you working on the project for now).

At the stage we are at, we cannot make incremental progress. We have something working, a prototype, but to make progress we have to re-arrange things, and such re-arrangements affect overall design.

I cannot say: we need foo, then bar, then baz. Because that's just one idea. Perhaps a talented programmer will join and say: we can do quux and frob instead, and it will be better than what I thought.

If you want to see some list, here's NGCCC overview:
https://github.com/bitcoinx/colored-coin-tools/wiki/The-next-gen-colored-coin-client

And here's WebcoinX bugtracker: https://trello.com/b/n4qoNDDI/webcoinx

But that's pointless. I don't want people to grab tasks to do, I want them to discuss development strategy first.

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September 27, 2013, 07:36:04 PM
 #232

But some people absolutely want a web client, and it's messy, we have to make several trade-offs to make it work.
I don't get it. Why don't you focus on delivering a clean, well-documented protocol instead and let the existing clients implement it?
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September 29, 2013, 12:13:31 AM
 #233

I don't get it. Why don't you focus on delivering a clean, well-documented protocol instead and let the existing clients implement it?

Bitcoin protocol supported multi-signature scripts from the start, but we still do not have a usable user-interface for things like dispute mediation, escrow etc.

This clearly shows that having something available in protocol isn't enough. Somebody also needs to build a user interface and infrastructure around it.

Same is true for colored coins protocol: protocol is simple, the trick is to implement a complete, usable solution.

People who develop "existing clients" need to focus on needs of majority of Bitcoin users, they need to implement features which make Bitcoin a better payment system. For example, a payment protocol is currently being standardized and implemented.

On the other hand, there is no reason why I can't make a new, experimental client. If I fail at that, it won't be a big problem.

Another thing is that implementing something in code is actually no different from writing thorough specification. What is code if not a formal specification of how program should work? (Well, you can say that code is too specific, but it really depends on how you write it, e.g. Haskell can be very similar to math notation.)

So I would rather write code and get something working than do it on paper first.

Besides that, colored coins have this property that the core is very simple, but when you actually try to implement it in a wallet, you run into a number of problems.

Also you probably overestimate how hard it is to implement a new wallet... Plazmotech implemented the first version of NGCCC in three days. Implementing a wallet per se isn't hard. It is hard to make sure that it is secure, reliable, fast, etc.

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September 29, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
 #234

I don't get it. Why don't you focus on delivering a clean, well-documented protocol instead and let the existing clients implement it?

Bitcoin protocol supported multi-signature scripts from the start, but we still do not have a usable user-interface for things like dispute mediation, escrow etc.

This clearly shows that having something available in protocol isn't enough. Somebody also needs to build a user interface and infrastructure around it.

Same is true for colored coins protocol: protocol is simple, the trick is to implement a complete, usable solution.

People who develop "existing clients" need to focus on needs of majority of Bitcoin users, they need to implement features which make Bitcoin a better payment system. For example, a payment protocol is currently being standardized and implemented.

On the other hand, there is no reason why I can't make a new, experimental client. If I fail at that, it won't be a big problem.

Another thing is that implementing something in code is actually no different from writing thorough specification. What is code if not a formal specification of how program should work? (Well, you can say that code is too specific, but it really depends on how you write it, e.g. Haskell can be very similar to math notation.)

So I would rather write code and get something working than do it on paper first.

Besides that, colored coins have this property that the core is very simple, but when you actually try to implement it in a wallet, you run into a number of problems.

Also you probably overestimate how hard it is to implement a new wallet... Plazmotech implemented the first version of NGCCC in three days. Implementing a wallet per se isn't hard. It is hard to make sure that it is secure, reliable, fast, etc.

Ok, helped me understand. To me, colored coins is truly an exciting concept and I'd like to see it grow. Being a senior developer myself, how can I help?
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October 14, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
 #235

Currently the focus is on the thing called ngcccbase: we're going to start with a command-line client (we'll make network daemon and GUI versions of it later, using the same core).

It is currently barely able to show balance, but all the infrastructure is there. It need many improvements before it is usable.

Repo: https://github.com/bitcoinx/ngcccbase

List of available tasks: https://github.com/bitcoinx/ngcccbase/issues

The process:

  • anybody can grab a task
  • the requirement is to report progress often. the plan is to make a working version in matter of weeks, so even few days of delay can have detrimental effect
  • fork ngcccbase repo, write your commits, create a pull request
  • in pull request, please mention how many hours you spent on it (you're supposed to track them, but guesstimation is OK)
  • bounties will be rewarded proportionally to hours spent, as long as they are reasonable
  • total compensation pool is 30 BTC, but we need to do a lot of development, and it isn't possible to tell what one hour of work will be worth.
  • if you do not like uncertainty you can offer to implement a specific task for a fixed bounty. drop me a note in this case

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October 14, 2013, 03:43:34 PM
 #236

We are also looking for JS developers to work on WebcoinX.

Here's a list of tasks: https://trello.com/b/n4qoNDDI/webcoinx (the most important ones are on 'Future' deck).

Interested developers should send me PM and describe:

  • their experience (particular, familiarity with things like binary serialization, Bitcoin protocol, OO design)
  • availability (how many hours per week can you allocate on this, how soon)
  • expected compensation (we have 30 BTC bounty pool for the next iteration of WebcoinX, but it is open for discussion)

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October 15, 2013, 10:22:07 PM
 #237

Nice work!

Where is the actual data saved which is associated with the coins?
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October 16, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
 #238

I'm sorry, I'm just dropping in here triggered by reddit all confused about colored coins implementations.

Why is this thread called ArmoryX while the implementation talked about seems to be called ngccc?

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October 16, 2013, 12:58:00 PM
 #239

Where is the actual data saved which is associated with the coins?

What data?

If you're talking about metadata like name, contract, etc., then it can be anywhere. E.g. somebody might post on forum that he is selling shares of his company foo, and you canl add this asset definition to your client, like

Code:
ngccc.py addasset foo "obc:cc8e64cef1a880f5132e73b5a1f52a72565c92afa8ec36c445c635fe37b372fd:0:263370"

Now it can show you your foo balance (how many shares you have), you can buy and sell them. Of course, client doesn't care what "foo" means.

If you're talking about ownership data, it is encoded in Bitcoin transactions. These transactions look exactly like normal Bitcoin transaction and do not have color tags or anything. But client can trace them back to the genesis transaction my going through the transaction graph, and that's how it knows that it represents ownership.

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October 16, 2013, 01:00:05 PM
 #240

I'm sorry, I'm just dropping in here triggered by reddit all confused about colored coins implementations.

Why is this thread called ArmoryX while the implementation talked about seems to be called ngccc?

Well, previously I was working on a different client, called ArmoryX. Since many people already follow this thread, I decided to continue posting updates in it. I guess I should rename it....

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