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Author Topic: sawdice the New Age of Dice - Let's play a game.  (Read 27017 times)
sawdice (OP)
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June 10, 2015, 09:00:25 PM
 #221

Just need 2 days, please have some patience.

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June 10, 2015, 09:31:08 PM
 #222

Just need 2 days, please have some patience.

2 days is quite a long time to sign a message. at this point no one has doubts that your site will never be back, regardless of your intentions.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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June 10, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
 #223

Don't worry tomorrow by this time the site will be up again and the cold storage wallet will be provided.

What's the delay in providing the cold storage wallet?

Why do you keep delaying it?

I understand if you're having trouble getting the site to work properly, but signing a message should be easy enough.

It's a single command, and costs nothing to do:

Code:
$ bitcoin-cli signmessage 16MSwieKFiD4BwEmrugnMm5zAgouH8BUkc "dooglus signed this for the sawdice thread - Wed Jun 10 13:49:33 PDT 2015"
HMg6kWAPyci9W5cB4xL3OkSgPZ5S4hQ2og0jHDpIJTp6Lk8UBhOt7fSmWQuTEdvsb0x1FnYXZL0ZqltvrskmrQE=

Well, I got this PM a lil' while ago:

actually there's a reason for that delay in providing the cold wallet storage. but i can't announce it right now.

Clearly something extra-important has come up to prevent them from being able to type a command, and being able to say why they can't type the command...

I want to say that I know nothing of the internal structure of this organization, and I've never played there.  But I think you guys aren't being completely fair when you're getting all sarcastic about typing commands.  I use GNU/Linux and bitcoin core and I understand what a terminal emulator is and cetera.  However, it may very well be the case that the person who is representing sawdice here knows literally nothing about this.  This person may have a background in graphic design, or who knows what.  You can't just say "type a command" to the average guy on the street and expect that s/he knows how to parse what you're saying.  Consider, your example just says type a command, it doesn't specify "on a system running bitcoind",in CMD or windows, or at a terminal emulator on a standard computer;  it doesn't say what to do with the $ (do you type it or not?).  Yes, I know the answers to these questions, but my point is that not everyone does.  It's completely plausible that the person who's representing sawdice to the outside world knows very little about how bitcoins are stored and transferred.  What's more, if that cold-storage address is indeed in cold storage, then it might not be imported into any computer that's accessible easily.  Further, the person on here may not even speak English all that well.  Imagine if you ended up with a job where people were asking you to perform technical tasks which aren't your job to do in a language you only partly understand.

Listen, guys, I know there have been all kinds of troubles and scams and shady characters and of course that history has it's impact on how we see the world today.  I just want to encourage you guys to try to give people a bit more of the benefit-of-the-doubt until there isn't a doubt.  When every potentially problematic action becomes license for a public lynching, it's a bit of a sad state of affairs for people who have shown up with an open mind to learn, IMO.

Anyway, that's my opinion.  nb4flametrolls: I am not defending the actions of sawdice and please don't construe my words as doing so.  I'm merely trying to provide some constructive criticism for some trusted members here who could, perhaps, imo, be a little more gentle with their requests---and, if you really want to give technical instructions, it's important to fill in a bit of background.
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June 11, 2015, 12:30:35 AM
 #224

^ Don't disagree completely with you. But there are a few problems with what you said.

I just want to encourage you guys to try to give people a bit more of the benefit-of-the-doubt until there isn't a doubt.

Some situations can drag on forever if people let them. It's better to pressure the site to solve the problems immediately than allow it to run and players deposit there and maybe be scammed in the end.

Yes, I know the answers to these questions, but my point is that not everyone does.  It's completely plausible that the person who's representing sawdice to the outside world knows very little about how bitcoins are stored and transferred.  What's more, if that cold-storage address is indeed in cold storage, then it might not be imported into any computer that's accessible easily.  Further, the person on here may not even speak English all that well.  Imagine if you ended up with a job where people were asking you to perform technical tasks which aren't your job to do in a language you only partly understand.

Can't imagine there are a lot of people working on the site. But it's hard to imagine they were able to put everything together and not know such basic things. And not spending 5 minutes online searching how it works first. But if they really have those problems it would be easier to say so, and ask for help. Through pm if needed or in another thread. Instead they just keep on delaying and making it look worse.
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June 11, 2015, 01:04:02 AM
 #225

Further, the person on here may not even speak English all that well.  Imagine if you ended up with a job where people were asking you to perform technical tasks which aren't your job to do in a language you only partly understand.

I'm not sure I would take a job where my primary responsibility would be talking to people in a language I didn't know.

If I was asked to perform a task I wasn't capable of, I would reply saying that I didn't know how to do it, and that I would attempt to get in touch with the appropriate person. I wouldn't keep promising to do it "in two days", "by this time tomorrow", "next week", etc. and then not doing it. That would make the company I was representing look bad.

I expect the reason they won't show us their cold storage is because they don't have it in place yet. Maybe they're intending to buy some coins and it's taking longer than expect to get it all in place, but then why not say that rather than giving us this bullshit "by this time tomorrow" line? I think all we're asking for is a little transparency. What's going on? What's the hold up here?

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June 11, 2015, 03:32:39 PM
 #226

Further, the person on here may not even speak English all that well.  Imagine if you ended up with a job where people were asking you to perform technical tasks which aren't your job to do in a language you only partly understand.

I'm not sure I would take a job where my primary responsibility would be talking to people in a language I didn't know.

If I was asked to perform a task I wasn't capable of, I would reply saying that I didn't know how to do it, and that I would attempt to get in touch with the appropriate person. I wouldn't keep promising to do it "in two days", "by this time tomorrow", "next week", etc. and then not doing it. That would make the company I was representing look bad.
Right, but this assumes that you understand the nature of the request.  If you were in a mentality of trying to keep a good face for your company (say you're the best English-speaker in the group, but you're still not a good one) and you weren't sure if admitting that you didn't know how to do X would make you look better or worse, you might obfuscate to avoid the situation.
Quote

I expect the reason they won't show us their cold storage is because they don't have it in place yet. Maybe they're intending to buy some coins and it's taking longer than expect to get it all in place, but then why not say that rather than giving us this bullshit "by this time tomorrow" line? I think all we're asking for is a little transparency. What's going on? What's the hold up here?

My caveat aside, I basically agree with everything you just said, dooglus.  I guess my main point above was that when you write things out like this, it seems helpful and beneficial to the discussion, when things get sarcastic and snooty, less so.  Hopefully these guys can get their act together.  I'm curious whether they owe anyone any money.  As was said on an earlier, it might be embarrasing to admit that you had left money deposited on sawdice, but that seems like a more crucial point to me than them proving their cold-storage.  Ie, did they actually take anyone's money that they need to pay back?  Maybe no one deposited anything, I dunno.
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June 13, 2015, 07:38:21 AM
 #227

Sawdice.com is back again, we were working on the whole system, sorry for the inconvenience.

Now Sawdice.com is faster and better than ever, and can handle up to 20k bets per second.

The provably fair system is updated to make the players sure it's 100% fair.

Max payout for now is 20 BTC

To make up for the downtime we made the house edge only 0.5% for the next 10 days till - 6/13/2015

And of course the cold wallet storage.

https://blockchain.info/address/1DUTgipJHFctU3UyWFavWmddRea7cAR5YK

We are glad to get your feedback on the new system, and if there's anything wrong feel free to contact us.

stay tuned for more offers and giveaways.

★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★ https://www.sawdice.com/★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★
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June 13, 2015, 07:59:16 AM
 #228

I'm perturbed. You just funded that. Which means that prior to yesterday, you did not have a cold wallet at all. That also leads me to consider you probably haven't secured the cold wallet properly.

You also claimed to have 4-figures of BTC before, then 3-figures. That cold wallet barely comes to 100 BTC.

I will hold my promise though, and remove the negative trust.

BA Computer Science, University of Oxford
Dissertation was about threat modelling on distributed ledgers.
sawdice (OP)
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June 13, 2015, 08:10:15 AM
 #229

I'm perturbed. You just funded that. Which means that prior to yesterday, you did not have a cold wallet at all. That also leads me to consider you probably haven't secured the cold wallet properly.

You also claimed to have 4-figures of BTC before, then 3-figures. That cold wallet barely comes to 100 BTC.

I will hold my promise though, and remove the negative trust.

You are right, after we start we realized some mistakes and we was determined to fix them, and we almost got everything together to start over .
thanks for keeping your word.

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June 13, 2015, 08:17:35 AM
 #230

First of all, good that you like to improve your site.

Technically the cold wallet address is not yet proven. You should sign a message with it so others can verify it. It would be rather foolish to give a random address, so I do think it is from you, still would be better.

Besides that, with a 0.5% HE you are risking at 40x kelly with that max payout with a 100 BTC bankroll. Basically a highroller can easily win more than 100 coins and it seems that you cannot pay him out then. That would be obviously bad. IMO you should be offering around 0.25-0.5 BTC max payout dynamically based on the bankroll. Basically: [0.5x or 1x] * [house edge] * [bankroll]. I am not an expert in kelly criterion and/or risk of ruin theory, but pretty sure that is the practical side of it.

The provably fair implementation seems a lot better, but is unfortunately not really good yet. Since I would repeat myself from another thread I will just copy this here:
When a player changes the clientseed, you give a new serverseed. This means you could calculate bad results based on these seeds. The idea of a clientseed is that there is a variable in the calculation which the site doesn't know in advance and therefor cannot predict the results in advance. 2 options:

1.  When someone sets the clientseed, you should keep the same hash (and don't reset the nonce or else player can cheat.) And then there should be a separate button to "request new serverseed" that also resets the nonce.

2. OR show the "next serverseed hash" already when setting the new clientseed (that is actually what PD does.)
To give a practical example of how you (as site owner) could cheat: if a player is always betting 2x at high. You could generate a serverseed that has relatively a lot of low numbers based on the clientseed that you already got. Or some players like to bet at 9900x multipliers, you could easily generate a serverseed that doesn't hit that (in first hundred thousand bets.)

I know that might seem silly, but technically it could be possible and it is a reason why the implementation is not yet really good.



Besides that I only had a quick look so not sure if I missed something.

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June 13, 2015, 08:28:12 AM
 #231

First of all, good that you like to improve your site.

Technically the cold wallet address is not yet proven. You should sign a message with it so others can verify it. It would be rather foolish to give a random address, so I do think it is from you, still would be better.

Besides that, with a 0.5% HE you are risking at 40x kelly with that max payout with a 100 BTC bankroll. Basically a highroller can easily win more than 100 coins and it seems that you cannot pay him out then. That would be obviously bad. IMO you should be offering around 0.25-0.5 BTC max payout dynamically based on the bankroll. Basically: [0.5x or 1x] * [house edge] * [bankroll]. I am not an expert in kelly criterion and/or risk of ruin theory, but pretty sure that is the practical side of it.

The provably fair implementation seems a lot better, but is unfortunately not really good yet. Since I would repeat myself from another thread I will just copy this here:
When a player changes the clientseed, you give a new serverseed. This means you could calculate bad results based on these seeds. The idea of a clientseed is that there is a variable in the calculation which the site doesn't know in advance and therefor cannot predict the results in advance. 2 options:

1.  When someone sets the clientseed, you should keep the same hash (and don't reset the nonce or else player can cheat.) And then there should be a separate button to "request new serverseed" that also resets the nonce.

2. OR show the "next serverseed hash" already when setting the new clientseed (that is actually what PD does.)
To give a practical example of how you (as site owner) could cheat: if a player is always betting 2x at high. You could generate a serverseed that has relatively a lot of low numbers based on the clientseed that you already got. Or some players like to bet at 9900x multipliers, you could easily generate a serverseed that doesn't hit that (in first hundred thousand bets.)

I know that might seem silly, but technically it could be possible and it is a reason why the implementation is not yet really good.



Besides that I only had a quick look so not sure if I missed something.

so it means they technically flaws in provably fair system and that is clear they can easily cheat to players with false generate serverseed as i feel like that, they dont implement the true provably fair system? 
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June 13, 2015, 08:52:25 AM
 #232

Never thought there was going to be any kind of cold storage, but it seems there is and you have shown there is a possibility but that is not 100% yet as you have not signed the message from the address you claim to control. Well done on turning it around and doing what is needed to give you a better chance at breaking a very competitive market with many top dice sites. Good luck..


 
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June 13, 2015, 09:04:19 AM
 #233

AFAIK to label something on Blockchain.info you must have it in your wallet...but yeah, you should still sign a message with the cold storage.

Curious, though - are you actually holding the 100 BTC in cold storage, or just on Blockchain.info?

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June 13, 2015, 09:32:39 AM
 #234

fuck it, props on the turn around, i'll give you a chance with 0.1btc
tx. 2a3574c71e35607a295f3cd7cc4a61fad953d52f7bd8f330d764012c56877d41

hope i dont regret this
Pony789
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June 13, 2015, 09:36:48 AM
 #235

Looks like there is some rounding issue. I made a throwaway account and lost a bet (Bet ID: 141770) of 0.00000500 but the profit is shown as -0.00000501.
It is not a big deal, but you should fix it when you have time.

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June 13, 2015, 09:44:58 AM
 #236

fuck it, props on the turn around, i'll give you a chance with 0.1btc
tx. 2a3574c71e35607a295f3cd7cc4a61fad953d52f7bd8f330d764012c56877d41

hope i dont regret this

I have two confrimations, not showing up in my balance, not showing up in pending deposits. WTF. Fix this now.

Yes i refreshed page, yes i clicked refresh button. ffs
sawdice (OP)
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June 13, 2015, 10:08:10 AM
 #237

fuck it, props on the turn around, i'll give you a chance with 0.1btc
tx. 2a3574c71e35607a295f3cd7cc4a61fad953d52f7bd8f330d764012c56877d41

hope i dont regret this

I have two confrimations, not showing up in my balance, not showing up in pending deposits. WTF. Fix this now.

Yes i refreshed page, yes i clicked refresh button. ffs

Your 0.1 had been credited to your account, now we disabled the deposit and tracking the issue .

★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★ https://www.sawdice.com/★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★
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June 13, 2015, 10:21:03 AM
Last edit: June 13, 2015, 10:39:40 AM by sawdice
 #238

First of all, good that you like to improve your site.

Technically the cold wallet address is not yet proven. You should sign a message with it so others can verify it. It would be rather foolish to give a random address, so I do think it is from you, still would be better.

Besides that, with a 0.5% HE you are risking at 40x kelly with that max payout with a 100 BTC bankroll. Basically a highroller can easily win more than 100 coins and it seems that you cannot pay him out then. That would be obviously bad. IMO you should be offering around 0.25-0.5 BTC max payout dynamically based on the bankroll. Basically: [0.5x or 1x] * [house edge] * [bankroll]. I am not an expert in kelly criterion and/or risk of ruin theory, but pretty sure that is the practical side of it.

The provably fair implementation seems a lot better, but is unfortunately not really good yet. Since I would repeat myself from another thread I will just copy this here:
When a player changes the clientseed, you give a new serverseed. This means you could calculate bad results based on these seeds. The idea of a clientseed is that there is a variable in the calculation which the site doesn't know in advance and therefor cannot predict the results in advance. 2 options:

1.  When someone sets the clientseed, you should keep the same hash (and don't reset the nonce or else player can cheat.) And then there should be a separate button to "request new serverseed" that also resets the nonce.

2. OR show the "next serverseed hash" already when setting the new clientseed (that is actually what PD does.)
To give a practical example of how you (as site owner) could cheat: if a player is always betting 2x at high. You could generate a serverseed that has relatively a lot of low numbers based on the clientseed that you already got. Or some players like to bet at 9900x multipliers, you could easily generate a serverseed that doesn't hit that (in first hundred thousand bets.)

I know that might seem silly, but technically it could be possible and it is a reason why the implementation is not yet really good.



Besides that I only had a quick look so not sure if I missed something.

We will apply that as soon as possible. but also in our current system the user is not forced to generate a client seed he can click on change and insert a client seed manually which makes him make 100% sure that we do not select the randomized client seed  

★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★ https://www.sawdice.com/★ ★ ▄▀▄ ★ ★
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June 13, 2015, 11:57:33 AM
 #239




lol, i wasnt expecting to withdraw anything, but this is just too much to let go Cheesy

great game, very responsive
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June 13, 2015, 11:59:45 AM
Last edit: June 13, 2015, 01:08:42 PM by yoloer808
 #240

"Cannot withdraw this amount at the moment please try again later or contact the support team."

pls process withdrawal. i requested 11.5 btc to 1EaNG5BGQBbCBe74Y9WNgUJWNDECkZX11N.

I will leave this here for everyone to be able to check if youve sent it.
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