Who is the thief?

[harkonnen]

Bitcoin, ultimately, is simply information. So, before we even have this conversation, we have to have this one: Can you "own" information?

I say, at best, you can control private keys by keeping them secret. If you fail to keep them secret at any step (from creation to storage), then you don't "own" the bitcoins associated with them.

I guess you could try to label a person "good" or "bad" by what they do with discovered information which was supposed to be kept a secret, but ultimately, I don't think you can label them a thief (nor punish them for how they use the information).

Information can be owned.
For an example, your password is yours. Don't tell anyone and it's yours forever. It's just impossible to own by sole owner once secret info leaked out.

With your logic, following is very true.
An intruder in your house is pointing a gun at you(brute force). You have to tell him the combination and location of safe that holds your gold and stack of cash. You failed to keep your secret, therefore you don't own the wealth associated with the info(combination and location). And intruder didn't do anything illegal.

Or your lover(whore) tricked you to spell the combination and secret location of your safe. She then tells her friend to get it. Her friend doesn't know the source of the info, and get the money. And you are telling me the bitches are not guilty, but you because you failed to keep the info secret.
Non-sense.

[harkonnen]

In reality, from money laundering law enforcement point of view, C is usually the one to blame, because the dirty money ends up at C's address

If that is true, then the law is pretty stupid, in my opinion.

The law is not stupid. Person C is stupid.
Stupidity of not knowing is guilty these days.
You got pulled over for speeding, but you can't say you didn't know the speed limit. Judge can consider the situation, and lower the penalty, but you are still guilty of not knowing.

"Person C unknowingly/unintentionally received stolen fund"
Come on, don't be so naive. In reality and in most of cases, Person C knows where this fund came from which is not so legal source.

[sirnoah]

all of them?

[Lauda]

The law is not stupid. Person C is stupid.
Stupidity of not knowing is guilty these days.
You got pulled over for speeding, but you can't say you didn't know the speed limit. Judge can consider the situation, and lower the penalty, but you are still guilty of not knowing.

"Person C unknowingly/unintentionally received stolen fund"
Come on, don't be so naive. In reality and in most of cases, Person C knows where this fund came from which is not so legal source.

You're talking nonsense. Stop with this. The chances of someone sending you 10 BTC by mistake are the same as some thief sending it to you.
As I've already stated Person C did nothing wrong. His wrongdoing will start if he refuses to cooperate.

all of them?

No. Stop replying before reading the thread.

[12coins]

The thieves are B and D. ?

[npham]

Person A is my answer

whats the answer?

[Kprawn]

The question :

What did person A do to stop any criminal actions being done, from the decision he took? If I pick up a bag of money, I must hand it in at the police station.

If I told someone else about it, and they do something criminal with it, I am party to the crime and if it can be proven in a court of law, I would be charged as a accomplice.

The better decision would be to report it, and then claim a possible reward from the owner, if it was offered.

Would you not want the same treatment, if the role was swapped and you were the owner of the BTC?

[Lauda]

The question :

What did person A do to stop any criminal actions being done, from the decision he took? If I pick up a bag of money, I must hand it in at the police station.

If I told someone else about it, and they do something criminal with it, I am party to the crime and if it can be proven in a court of law, I would be charged as a accomplice.

The better decision would be to report it, and then claim a possible reward from the owner, if it was offered.

Would you not want the same treatment, if the role was swapped and you were the owner of the BTC?

The thread is asking about the thief. What he did doesn't make him a thief. It could make him a criminal if he was charged with enough evidence.
Person B and D are the thieves (and potentially C).
E being a node that isn't aware of anything can't be blamed.

[cinnamon_carter]

When i see published evidence this actually took place , i will give you my answer.

There are known weak, published privkeys that sometimes get a little btc however like the one brain wallet returns if you leave all the spaces empty.

Import that key into your wallet (maybe better yet a test wallet) and you will see some btc appear and vanish from time to time....

While hypothetical questions are often productive , may i suggest someone examine the transactions on the blockchain at the address i mentioned and see who is getting the btc in and out and by what method,   I have not had time to do it yet.

Last time i checked there are up to 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639936 priv keys possible.

No known technology can crack this right now and maybe ever.


edit one in your watered down example how do we know that person a,b,c,d,e are all different people ?

[louise123]

Random thought. Take this hypothetical situation:

Person A finds out via brute force that the private key 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF 1111 contains 10BTC and tells person B the Bitcoin address and person D the private key
Person B crafts a Bitcoin transaction that sends the 10BTC to Person C and gives that transaction to person D.
Person D signs this transaction with the private key provided by person A and gives it to Person E.
Person E broadcasts this signed transaction to the Bitcoin network.

Who is the thief?

Was it person A, who simply discovered the weak private key?
Person B who crafted a Bitcoin transaction ?
Person C who unknowingly received the stolen funds?
Person D who signed a transaction he did not make with a private key A gave him?
Person E who simply relayed a Bitcoin transaction?

So legally and morally speaking, which person do you consider to be the thief? which of these acts is considered "theft" to you?

I stopped at B.
That is not possible.
You cannot create a transaction for coins you do not own.

[Blazr]

Random thought. Take this hypothetical situation:

Person A finds out via brute force that the private key 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF 1111 contains 10BTC and tells person B the Bitcoin address and person D the private key
Person B crafts a Bitcoin transaction that sends the 10BTC to Person C and gives that transaction to person D.
Person D signs this transaction with the private key provided by person A and gives it to Person E.
Person E broadcasts this signed transaction to the Bitcoin network.

Who is the thief?

Was it person A, who simply discovered the weak private key?
Person B who crafted a Bitcoin transaction ?
Person C who unknowingly received the stolen funds?
Person D who signed a transaction he did not make with a private key A gave him?
Person E who simply relayed a Bitcoin transaction?

So legally and morally speaking, which person do you consider to be the thief? which of these acts is considered "theft" to you?

I stopped at B.
That is not possible.
You cannot create a transaction for coins you do not own.

Of course you can, you just can't sign it without the private key. Here is one I made up that spends the first 50BTC Satoshi mined:

Code:

{
    "hash": "8eaa62498d7b3ae141cd2f633b4ddfe34915a0dbd614f5daa29e18537def9265",
    "ver": 1,
    "vin_sz": 22,
    "vout_sz": 1,
    "lock_time": 0,
    "size": 4003,
    "in": [
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "0e3e2357e806b6cdb1f70b54c3a3a17b6714ee1f0e68bebb44a74b1efd512098",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "d6be34ccf6edddc3cf69842dce99fe503bf632ba2c2adb0f95c63f6706ae0c52",
                "n": "1"
            },
            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "cb2679bfd0a557b2dc0d8a6116822f3fcbe281ca3f3e18d3855aa7ea378fa373",
                "n": "0"
            },
            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "dfdf0b375a987f17056e5e919ee6eadd87dad36c09c4016d4a03cea15e5c05e3",
                "n": "1"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "fd87f9adebb17f4ebb1673da76ff48ad29e64b7afa02fda0f2c14e43d220fe24",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "36ebe0ca3237002acb12e1474a3859bde0ac84b419ec4ae373e63363ebef731c",
                "n": "1"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "d658ab87cc053b8dbcfd4aa2717fd23cc3edfe90ec75351fadd6a0f7993b461d",
                "n": "5"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "ffd901679de65d4398de90cefe68d2c3ef073c41f7e8dbec2fb5cd75fe71dfe7",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "a66dddd42f9f2491d3c336ce5527d45cc5c2163aaed3158f81dc054447f447a2",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "065ef6b1463f552f675622a5d1fd2c08d6324b4402049f68e767a719e2049e8d",
                "n": "86"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "cea36d008badf5c7866894b191d3239de9582d89b6b452b596f1f1b76347f8cb",
                "n": "31"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "a3a6f902a51a2cbebede144e48a88c05e608c2cce28024041a5b9874013a1e2a",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "24087a08309ea5796ef139e65f13ce10db1e4465057b665b9d5102a640aac6be",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "91b21c74b6b9cc168fc9a079d0aadf4acc90706196a7278cd674611a9104122e",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "1b0235867691784492804fce22a18c2337c97d58a1c63fc275fe26137596d671",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "7f66c5e6a8bb4b9e640dfcb097232c740a43481dc02817959f48c48d3436b583",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "aba797b6afe2ca2123f086613d04aca0d2609d2ef209d81e27da907f2b535f69",
                "n": "1"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "ead9f9c56783aedca6a40fea8af37e4227a53a830d2c50e5003c03993bc4154c",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "a6be9f9f6c2194c9d593859e94a09a307ad4fd16179ea903de055c17b46a299c",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "82e9cc08d424451e6ff1347a9ef62c88585fa658da3e36c7ce9a18de94726e8e",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "b4c5b2884fd3490144824977b27b1a8495784d4c473b5b24ceab6703fd311d34",
                "n": "1"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        },
        {
            "prev_out": {
                "hash": "571060bfdf239d7272415b502107f14a41e83834a762a38b6325e6217f48b97a",
                "n": "0"
            },

            "sequence": 4294967295
        }
    ],
    "out": [
        {
            "value": "50.02521292",
            "scriptPubKey": "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 f96960d826d30c1d936f078e7f8e12d8cbb5a86d OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG"
        }
    ]
}

[louise123]

Random thought. Take this hypothetical situation:

Person A finds out via brute force that the private key 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF 1111 contains 10BTC and tells person B the Bitcoin address and person D the private key
Person B crafts a Bitcoin transaction that sends the 10BTC to Person C and gives that transaction to person D.
Person D signs this transaction with the private key provided by person A and gives it to Person E.
Person E broadcasts this signed transaction to the Bitcoin network.

Who is the thief?

Was it person A, who simply discovered the weak private key?
Person B who crafted a Bitcoin transaction ?
Person C who unknowingly received the stolen funds?
Person D who signed a transaction he did not make with a private key A gave him?
Person E who simply relayed a Bitcoin transaction?

So legally and morally speaking, which person do you consider to be the thief? which of these acts is considered "theft" to you?

I stopped at B.
That is not possible.
You cannot create a transaction for coins you do not own.

Of course you can, you just can't sign it without the private key.

OK, then in that case, I would say that the thief is person A, because he knowingly gave away a private key that didn't belong to him.

[Kyraishi]

Random thought. Take this hypothetical situation:

Person A finds out via brute force that the private key 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF 1111 contains 10BTC and tells person B the Bitcoin address and person D the private key
Person B crafts a Bitcoin transaction that sends the 10BTC to Person C and gives that transaction to person D.
Person D signs this transaction with the private key provided by person A and gives it to Person E.
Person E broadcasts this signed transaction to the Bitcoin network.

Who is the thief?

Was it person A, who simply discovered the weak private key?
Person B who crafted a Bitcoin transaction ?
Person C who unknowingly received the stolen funds?
Person D who signed a transaction he did not make with a private key A gave him?
Person E who simply relayed a Bitcoin transaction?

So legally and morally speaking, which person do you consider to be the thief? which of these acts is considered "theft" to you?

All of them.

It is like someone - Person A - had the combination to a safe.
Person B opened the front door.
Person C kept an eye on things.
Person D opened the safe
Person E got the cash.

It was a gangbang 

[NeuroticFish]

Random thought. Take this hypothetical situation:

Person A finds out via brute force that the private key 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF 1111 contains 10BTC and tells person B the Bitcoin address and person D the private key
Person B crafts a Bitcoin transaction that sends the 10BTC to Person C and gives that transaction to person D.
Person D signs this transaction with the private key provided by person A and gives it to Person E.
Person E broadcasts this signed transaction to the Bitcoin network.

Who is the thief?

Was it person A, who simply discovered the weak private key?
Person B who crafted a Bitcoin transaction ?
Person C who unknowingly received the stolen funds?
Person D who signed a transaction he did not make with a private key A gave him?
Person E who simply relayed a Bitcoin transaction?

So legally and morally speaking, which person do you consider to be the thief? which of these acts is considered "theft" to you?

A and B.
If you find a weakness, you are cool. If you share it to do evil, you are a villain.
And yeah, if you use the information to steal, even if it's not you who found it out, it's still theft.

Of course you can, you just can't sign it without the private key. Here is one I made up that spends the first 50BTC Satoshi mined:

At first read this was an absolute surprise. At second read it was a "ah! lol! now you have to get Satoshi to help out with the rest ... if he still has the priv key..."