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Author Topic: Early speculator's reward antidote  (Read 20305 times)
ene
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June 01, 2011, 01:35:52 PM
 #161

Ignore him.

Dollar bills have dates and serial numbers on them.  In theory some kook could start a movement to reject old bills.

Dollars are legal tender, which means if you are already indebted to somebody, they have to accept the dollars at at least face value, although they can accept older notes at above face value if they really want to. Roll Eyes (And it's the same for other currencies in other countries)
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casascius
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June 01, 2011, 02:20:20 PM
 #162

If you want to look at this as an attack or a vulnerability, the real attack vector (if it can be called that) is how non intuitive, user unfriendly, and buggy the client is and how it is being improved so incrementally slowly.  I have had to redownload the block chain a dozen times because there are so many ways for the database files to lose sync with the wallet it is outrageous. I certainly don't want to poo on the whole cryptocurrency concept, which I believe is truly novel, but the app is proof-of-concept quality at best. Many serious problems exist (scalability an elephant size one) that haven't even begun to be addressed.

The fact is, the first person to show up with a vastly improved client gets a ripe opportunity to dictate how it is going to work, especially if it remains backward compatible with the classic ruleset/blockchain and becomes a worthy upgrade even for those with no interest in the changed rules.

If you want to do something about it, work on the UI and fix the bugs before someone with an agenda does it for you.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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June 01, 2011, 02:29:59 PM
 #163

If you want to look at this as an attack or a vulnerability, the real attack vector (if it can be called that) is how non intuitive, user unfriendly, and buggy the client is and how it is being improved so incrementally slowly.  I have had to redownload the block chain a dozen times because there are so many ways for the database files to lose sync with the wallet it is outrageous. I certainly don't want to poo on the whole cryptocurrency concept, which I believe is truly novel, but the app is proof-of-concept quality at best. Many serious problems exist (scalability an elephant size one) that haven't even begun to be addressed.

The fact is, the first person to show up with a vastly improved client gets a ripe opportunity to dictate how it is going to work, especially if it remains backward compatible with the classic ruleset and becomes a worthy upgrade even for those with no interest in the changed rules.

If you want to do something about it, work on the UI and fix the bugs before someone with an agenda does it for you.

Works fine for me, but there are other clients in the works as well.

If it's so fucking easy to fix, why don't you do it? Alternatively, you could pay Gavin to quit his job and develop the client full time. I mean, you've got all that money sitting around that you didn't actually earn, you owe it to the community to give back.

LOL @ the "someone with an agenda fixing bugs". It's open source software. PLEASE make a better client "with an agenda". As long as I or someone I trust can audit the code, nothing will make me happier.
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June 01, 2011, 02:38:17 PM
 #164

Btw, has anyone stopped to consider that those early adopters might need a substantial amount of wealth to be successful in lobbying the politicians to prevent bitcoin from being banned and chased into the shadows for years to come?

(gasteve on IRC) Does your website accept cash? https://bitpay.com
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June 01, 2011, 05:43:48 PM
 #165

If someone with an "agenda" is fixing bugs in the public client, their fixes will be inspected. If their "fixes" also include major changes to how Bitcoin or the client function, then those fixes will either be rejected ("Break this into individual patches") or put to the community for a consensus.

It isn't like developers are wizards who can magically subvert software in which their code is used.

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June 01, 2011, 06:06:13 PM
 #166

Btw, has anyone stopped to consider that those early adopters might need a substantial amount of wealth to be successful in lobbying the politicians to prevent bitcoin from being banned and chased into the shadows for years to come?

yes.

that was gates' mistake, wasn't it?
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June 01, 2011, 06:23:12 PM
 #167

If it's so fucking easy to fix, why don't you do it? Alternatively, you could pay Gavin to quit his job and develop the client full time. I mean, you've got all that money sitting around that you didn't actually earn, you owe it to the community to give back.

Somehow I suspect Gavin has more BTC than me and is unlikely to need my contribution.  I am willing to bet his most limited resource is time.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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June 02, 2011, 03:37:47 AM
 #168

Ignore him.

Dollar bills have dates and serial numbers on them.  In theory some kook could start a movement to reject old bills.

Dollars are legal tender, which means if you are already indebted to somebody, they have to accept the dollars at at least face value, although they can accept older notes at above face value if they really want to. Roll Eyes (And it's the same for other currencies in other countries)

Exactly.  They could offer a premium.  No difference.

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June 02, 2011, 03:46:28 AM
 #169

If it's so fucking easy to fix, why don't you do it? Alternatively, you could pay Gavin to quit his job and develop the client full time. I mean, you've got all that money sitting around that you didn't actually earn, you owe it to the community to give back.

Somehow I suspect Gavin has more BTC than me and is unlikely to need my contribution.  I am willing to bet his most limited resource is time.

Gavins' time is a deflationary asset?!

Can we trade it somewhere?

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June 02, 2011, 03:52:30 AM
 #170

Gavins' time is a deflationary asset?!

Can we trade it somewhere?

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June 04, 2011, 12:52:46 PM
 #171

it does no good to sell off all your coins when the market is only so deep and at the end you'd be giving away coins for free eventually. Right now if that guy with 370,000 coins sold he would only be able to sell 9500 of them for about 185,000 bucks (not including dark pool orders that may exist)

the best thing for everyone including early adopters is to slowly sell their coins, maybe a few hundred at a time, so that more people can get involved while at the same time allowing for maximum "value" to be obtained.

Then again as has been mentioned before a lot of early adopters are involved with this project to see it come to fruition as a currency.  There is not a whole lot in it for them to "crash" the system. Then again if they did sell off everything and prices plummeted back to near nothing I am sure there are plenty of people with offers on mtgox for like 10,000 coins at 10 cents per just waiting to get back into it/reinvest
unclescrooge
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June 04, 2011, 12:54:52 PM
 #172

This is how I would solve the problem of the early speculators profiting disproportionately at the expense of newer comers.

How is this a problem? Early speculators are those who take the more risks. Big profit is their justified reward



*if only i bought btc when they were worth 1 usd*

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June 04, 2011, 12:59:42 PM
 #173

You lost me at

problem of the early speculators profiting disproportionately
stic.man
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June 04, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
 #174

in my opinion this system can yoyo from near zero to where it is now multiple times and it would still be a solid long-term investment if it becomes an accepted means of exchange.  It's not going anywhere, it just needs to be utilized.  The system will be resilient, resiliency has been built-in.

edit: Of course this is assuming this is the client that catches on
stic.man
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June 04, 2011, 01:13:33 PM
 #175

why wouldn't you be able to convert it into cash?  Better yet why would you?
mewantsbitcoins
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June 04, 2011, 01:14:44 PM
 #176

in my opinion this system can yoyo from near zero to where it is now multiple times and it would still be a solid long-term investment if it becomes an accepted means of exchange.  It's not going anywhere, it just needs to be utilized.  The system will be resilient, resiliency has been built-in.

edit: Of course this is assuming this is the client that catches on

I don't think the system will be as resilient as you think when no one can convert BTC to cash.

If enough people are in possession of BTCs, they will just start trading in BTC even if exchanges go down
stic.man
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June 04, 2011, 01:29:13 PM
 #177

there are plenty of people just getting started with this stuff that would LOVE a collapse like that to happen so they can get more coins.  It's going to be bumpy for sure until it's realized exactly what we have here with this client.  And there have been plenty of 6-figure deals made in this market thus far with the market maintaining each time. 
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June 04, 2011, 01:30:37 PM
 #178

also the coins can be split down to many magnitudes smaller than 1BTC, so deflation shouldn't be a problem.  What will happen is instead of thinking of 1BTC as being a dollar you might think of 0.0001BTC as a "dollar" in this environment.
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June 04, 2011, 01:37:41 PM
 #179

I am convinced that the way early adopters sell (because this is what I'm doing for my relatively early buy) is to do it slowly while people are buying, and not to bother selling while the market is taking a hit.

That's mutually beneficial - sellers get the going rate and buyers, at worst, see the rise in the exchange rate subdued.

I am fairly willing to bet that none of the early adopters holding lots of coin would dare toss a chunk at the market to crash it, especially while the spread of the news is still in its infancy.  It would totally ruin the value of the remainder of their holdings at a time when it could be expected to have decent future value.  It would be taking complete carnage on one's body to get a good price for their nose.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
stic.man
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June 04, 2011, 01:43:41 PM
 #180

I am convinced that the way early adopters sell (because this is what I'm doing for my relatively early buy) is to do it slowly while people are buying, and not to bother selling while the market is taking a hit.

That's mutually beneficial - sellers get the going rate and buyers, at worst, see the rise in the exchange rate subdued.

I am fairly willing to bet that none of the early adopters holding lots of coin would dare toss a chunk at the market to crash it, especially while the spread of the news is still in its infancy.  It would totally ruin the value of the remainder of their holdings at a time when it could be expected to have decent future value.  It would be taking complete carnage on one's body to get a good price for their nose.

exactly
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