chinese exchanges reject 20mb block size increase

[QuestionAuthority]

It doesn't matter if the china exchanges are against it or some other entitiy. it's all about nodes. if the people follow the fork, chinese exchanges have to follow.

What you don't get is that the major Chinese exchanges are very tightly tied to major Chinese mining operations and those nodes *matter* (as the majority or at least close to it of all Bitcoin hashpower is in China).

but but but majority of Chinese exchanges have fake volume, with organized pump and dump     . It's beyond me to understand how people can trust any of these " major"    Chinese exchanges .  All it takes for them to crumble/disappear overnight with your bitcoin  is a little bit of government crack down........  aaaaannnnnnnd its gone     then you would see people start crying and complaining about their stolen coins    
 
IMO all these " major" Chinese exchanges are operating in grey area of law in China hence very susceptible to shutdown at any moment law changes or a ban comes to effect

As for Chinese mega-farms miner, they're simply greedy and are init to purely profit from it by dumping their mined coins every day. All they're are after is fiat money, they don't really give a fuck about bitcoin since it has ZERO utility in China.  

Plus majority of mega-farm are located in very remote locations so obviously getting a proper internet connection would really hurt their profit margin hence if they could have their way, they would never want to upgrade at all. It's like asking a kid to give up it's candy voluntarily  

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

If the Chinese think about it long enough, they might decide to separate their Bitcoin from the rest of the world and mine their own version. They have most of the economy right now anyway and could increase their profit by excluding all of the other miners around the world. The Bitcoin hashrate would immediately drop by +50%.

[hobbymd]

It doesn't matter if the china exchanges are against it or some other entitiy. it's all about nodes. if the people follow the fork, chinese exchanges have to follow.

What you don't get is that the major Chinese exchanges are very tightly tied to major Chinese mining operations and those nodes *matter* (as the majority or at least close to it of all Bitcoin hashpower is in China).

but but but majority of Chinese exchanges have fake volume, with organized pump and dump     . It's beyond me to understand how people can trust any of these " major"    Chinese exchanges .  All it takes for them to crumble/disappear overnight with your bitcoin  is a little bit of government crack down........  aaaaannnnnnnd its gone     then you would see people start crying and complaining about their stolen coins    
 
IMO all these " major" Chinese exchanges are operating in grey area of law in China hence very susceptible to shutdown at any moment law changes or a ban comes to effect

As for Chinese mega-farms miner, they're simply greedy and are init to purely profit from it by dumping their mined coins every day. All they're are after is fiat money, they don't really give a fuck about bitcoin since it has ZERO utility in China.  

Plus majority of mega-farm are located in very remote locations so obviously getting a proper internet connection would really hurt their profit margin hence if they could have their way, they would never want to upgrade at all. It's like asking a kid to give up it's candy voluntarily  

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

If the Chinese think about it long enough, they might decide to separate their Bitcoin from the rest of the world and mine their own version. They have most of the economy right now anyway and could increase their profit by excluding all of the other miners around the world. The Bitcoin hashrate would immediately drop by +50%.

that's equal to shooting yourself in the foot. Lets say hypothetical they go for it, what they gonna use the Chinese version of bitcoin for (they already had QQ coin)? passing hot potato from one hand to another  do more speculation?!?!  while the rest of the world uses the real bitcoin with better features and increased transaction per seconds.

 As is stand today, bitcoin has no utility in China, expect for dumping and taking profit ( there is no real economy at all, it's all speculative) if they cut themselves from the rest of the world , then they have severely limited their market . Heck there might not be enough buyers alone in China to absorb the dumping from mega-farms  hence price sinks and subsequently the mega-farms need to close down if they can't meet their operation cost. It would be their demise .

Also it might be better for the Blockchain as a whole since having majority of hashing power centralized in China is not a good thing at all. What if tomorrow their government starts to crack down on mega-farms?  i think that would actually be good for bitcoin since it would result in spread of hashrate  and take out their majority.

[QuestionAuthority]

It doesn't matter if the china exchanges are against it or some other entitiy. it's all about nodes. if the people follow the fork, chinese exchanges have to follow.

What you don't get is that the major Chinese exchanges are very tightly tied to major Chinese mining operations and those nodes *matter* (as the majority or at least close to it of all Bitcoin hashpower is in China).

but but but majority of Chinese exchanges have fake volume, with organized pump and dump     . It's beyond me to understand how people can trust any of these " major"    Chinese exchanges .  All it takes for them to crumble/disappear overnight with your bitcoin  is a little bit of government crack down........  aaaaannnnnnnd its gone     then you would see people start crying and complaining about their stolen coins    
 
IMO all these " major" Chinese exchanges are operating in grey area of law in China hence very susceptible to shutdown at any moment law changes or a ban comes to effect

As for Chinese mega-farms miner, they're simply greedy and are init to purely profit from it by dumping their mined coins every day. All they're are after is fiat money, they don't really give a fuck about bitcoin since it has ZERO utility in China.  

Plus majority of mega-farm are located in very remote locations so obviously getting a proper internet connection would really hurt their profit margin hence if they could have their way, they would never want to upgrade at all. It's like asking a kid to give up it's candy voluntarily  

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

If the Chinese think about it long enough, they might decide to separate their Bitcoin from the rest of the world and mine their own version. They have most of the economy right now anyway and could increase their profit by excluding all of the other miners around the world. The Bitcoin hashrate would immediately drop by +50%.

that's equal to shooting yourself in the foot. Lets say hypothetical they go for it, what they gonna use the Chinese version of bitcoin for (they already had QQ coin)? passing hot potato from one hand to another   do more speculation?!?!  while the rest of the world uses the real bitcoin with better features and increased transaction per seconds.

 As is stand today, bitcoin has no utility in China, expect for dumping and taking profit ( there is no real economy at all, it's all speculative) if they cut themselves from the rest of the world , then they have severely limited their market . Heck there might not be enough buyers alone in China to absorb the dumping from mega-farms   hence price sinks and subsequently the mega-farms need to close down if they can't meet their operation cost. It would be their demise .

Also it might be better for the Blockchain as a whole since having majority of hashing power centralized in China is not a good thing at all. What if tomorrow their government starts to crack down on mega-farms?  i think that would actually be good for bitcoin since it would result in spread of hashrate  and take out their majority.

I'm thinking more along the lines of blocksize increase and their limited internet capability. We've been discussing Chinese farms fighting the increase. If the increase happened anyway they will be forced to take some kind of action. I do agree that it would be good for Bitcoin if they were out of the picture.

[hobbymd]

I'm thinking more along the lines of blocksize increase and their limited internet capability. We've been discussing Chinese farms fighting the increase. If the increase happened anyway they will be forced to take some kind of action. I do agree that it would be good for Bitcoin if they were out of the picture.

In a way the Chinese miners are hindering any further progress that could've taken place already.

They should've not set up mega-farms in a country with restricted internet to begin with but their greed of making money  didn't stop them from doing it and now the rest of community needs to suffer just because they can't access internet is their own fault and not anybody's else. I say if they can't keep up let them sink for good.

They can go on and make a Chinese version of it and trade it among themselves  and the rest of us can progress further without any limitation and a better decentralization.  it's a win win strategy  

[johnyj]

It doesn't matter if the china exchanges are against it or some other entitiy. it's all about nodes. if the people follow the fork, chinese exchanges have to follow.

It has very little to do with nodes, you can setup thousands of nodes overnight, but the largest power in bitcoin ecosystem is miner, the second are exchanges. It is miners' hashing power decide where the blockchain goes. If you suddenly lose 50% of hashing power, there are much more danger on the way ahead: First, your transaction would not be able to process in time for at least 2016 blocks. Second, your chain's hash power would be the same as the other chain, so the hashing power on the other chain could easily 50% attack you and double spend/reverse transactions on your chain, causing your chain to be useless for serious business transactions

And exchanges are more important now than 2 years ago. Without exchanges, most of the people would never be able to get some bitcoin to do transactions, because mining are now concentrated on large mining operations

[QuestionAuthority]

I'm thinking more along the lines of blocksize increase and their limited internet capability. We've been discussing Chinese farms fighting the increase. If the increase happened anyway they will be forced to take some kind of action. I do agree that it would be good for Bitcoin if they were out of the picture.

In a way the Chinese miners are hindering any further progress that could've taken place already.

They should've not set up mega-farms in a country with restricted internet to begin with but their greed of making money  didn't stop them from doing it and now the rest of community needs to suffer just because they can't access internet is their own fault and not anybody's else. I say if they can't keep up let them sink for good.

They can go on and make a Chinese version of it and trade it among themselves  and the rest of us can progress further without any limitation and a better decentralization.  it's a win win strategy  

That works for me. It would be kind of cool if they refused to upgrade, the difficulty drops massively and westerners are able to mine again for a reasonable profit. lol

[johnyj]

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

Exactly, this is not a China specific thing. Currently, I count 90% of the bitcoin utility is coming from speculation and long term investment, only very tiny amount of bitcoin were used as payment medium (and mostly were used in mining, drug dealing and money laundering). International remittance have the potential to grow, but that also requires bitcoiners to be extremely good on IT and have good exchanges on both end, not an easy task

Because speculation and investment is the major demand for bitcoin, it is very important not to bring in uncertainties in bitcoin, that will hurt speculators and investors' confidence and affect the demand negatively, even increase the difficulty in regulation front

[hobbymd]

I'm thinking more along the lines of blocksize increase and their limited internet capability. We've been discussing Chinese farms fighting the increase. If the increase happened anyway they will be forced to take some kind of action. I do agree that it would be good for Bitcoin if they were out of the picture.

In a way the Chinese miners are hindering any further progress that could've taken place already.

They should've not set up mega-farms in a country with restricted internet to begin with but their greed of making money  didn't stop them from doing it and now the rest of community needs to suffer just because they can't access internet is their own fault and not anybody's else. I say if they can't keep up let them sink for good.

They can go on and make a Chinese version of it and trade it among themselves  and the rest of us can progress further without any limitation and a better decentralization.  it's a win win strategy  

That works for me. It would be kind of cool if they refused to upgrade, the difficulty drops massively and westerners are able to mine again for a reasonable profit. lol

that would be truly awesome, also that would cause less selling pressure since small miners don't sell everything they mine unlike mega-farms. again another win win strategy     it seems the rest of the community is better off without the Chinese and their bickering  

[hobbymd]

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

Exactly, this is not a China specific thing. Currently, I count 90% of the bitcoin utility is coming from speculation and long term investment, only very tiny amount of bitcoin were used as payment medium (and mostly were used in mining, drug dealing and money laundering). International remittance have the potential to grow, but that also requires bitcoiners to be extremely good on IT and have good exchanges on both end, not an easy task

Because speculation and investment is the major demand for bitcoin, it is very important not to bring in uncertainties in bitcoin, that will hurt speculators and investors' confidence and affect the demand negatively, even increase the difficulty in regulation front

that's true only if you live in China , outside of it you can actually use it now a days to buy stuff, pay bills, send money across the globe, etc etc

[QuestionAuthority]

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

Exactly, this is not a China specific thing. Currently, I count 90% of the bitcoin utility is coming from speculation and long term investment, only very tiny amount of bitcoin were used as payment medium (and mostly were used in mining, drug dealing and money laundering). International remittance have the potential to grow, but that also requires bitcoiners to be extremely good on IT and have good exchanges on both end, not an easy task

Because speculation and investment is the major demand for bitcoin, it is very important not to bring in uncertainties in bitcoin, that will hurt speculators and investors' confidence and affect the demand negatively, even increase the difficulty in regulation front

Well, that's about the smartest thing I've heard yet. It's not about if it will work, if it won't work, if it alienates one group or another or if the change is blessed by Jesus. It's about consumer confidence and perception. Screw that up and we all lose.

[johnyj]

You're right. All mega farm owners are in it just for the fiat. That's not just a Chinese thing. In the Middle Ages alchemy was a study where people tried to convert base metals into gold. They wanted to figure out how to make money out of nothing. For farm operators, Bitcoin is modern day alchemy that actually works. They can take a bunch of electronic parts and manufacture money. I'm sure none of them said, "hey, I want the world to be a better place. I'm going to spend millions of dollars to mine Bitcoin to empower the people then donate all the mined Bitcoins to African relief, save the whales and feed the children." Mining farms are about profit. Profit doesn't come from holding Bitcoins. It happens when you sell them for fiat.

Exactly, this is not a China specific thing. Currently, I count 90% of the bitcoin utility is coming from speculation and long term investment, only very tiny amount of bitcoin were used as payment medium (and mostly were used in mining, drug dealing and money laundering). International remittance have the potential to grow, but that also requires bitcoiners to be extremely good on IT and have good exchanges on both end, not an easy task

Because speculation and investment is the major demand for bitcoin, it is very important not to bring in uncertainties in bitcoin, that will hurt speculators and investors' confidence and affect the demand negatively, even increase the difficulty in regulation front

that's true only if you live in China , outside of it you can actually use it now a days to buy stuff, pay bills, send money across the globe, etc etc

Why should I spend a coin that will increase in value long term wise while I could spend fiat money which is decrease in value long term wise?

Unless every time I always first purchase bitcoin with fiat money from exchanges and then spend them, in order to promote bitcoin awareness. But it seems not a lot of people are interested (I have made some suggestions but people are too lazy to bother, maybe because the effect is too small comparing with long term holding
An easy way to make bitcoin worth millions of dollars)

[johnyj]

That works for me. It would be kind of cool if they refused to upgrade, the difficulty drops massively and westerners are able to mine again for a reasonable profit. lol

that would be truly awesome, also that would cause less selling pressure since small miners don't sell everything they mine unlike mega-farms. again another win win strategy     it seems the rest of the community is better off without the Chinese and their bickering  

Please think it over again: If Chinese decided to work further on the original blockchain, let's call it bitcoin legacy, then what will they do with their coins on the new blockchain bitcoin XT? They will dump them all, that will be millions of coins dumped on western exchanges, sending bitcoin's value to single digits, maybe cents, thus the whole XT coin ecosystem will collapse. Similarly XT people will dump all their coins on the bitcoin legacy chain, causing their coins to become worthless, both coins dead

[hobbymd]

That works for me. It would be kind of cool if they refused to upgrade, the difficulty drops massively and westerners are able to mine again for a reasonable profit. lol

that would be truly awesome, also that would cause less selling pressure since small miners don't sell everything they mine unlike mega-farms. again another win win strategy     it seems the rest of the community is better off without the Chinese and their bickering  

Please think it over again: If Chinese decided to work further on the original blockchain, let's call it bitcoin legacy, then what will they do with their coins on the new blockchain bitcoin XT? They will dump them all, that will be millions of coins dumped on western exchanges, sending bitcoin's value to single digits, maybe cents, thus the whole XT coin ecosystem will collapse. Similarly XT people will dump all their coins on the bitcoin legacy chain, causing their coins to become worthless, both coins dead

well i thought the whole point of this discussion is about Chinese miner not being able to mine bigger blocks because of their poor internet connection ( stale/orphan blocks ) hence rejecting the whole idea of increase block size because they stand to loose money to those with better internet connection.

Also dumping prices to singles digits is a guarantee death sentence for the mega-farms since they won't be able to sustain their operation cost. They stand to loose millions of dollars if that happens  . Maybe the price goes into singles digits for a few months and once the mega-farms are all bankrupt we can start again but this time any Chinese mega-farm investor will think twice before setting up a shop in some remote location in china just because they have access to cheap power!!


The whole point here is the Chinese mega-farms are holding a choke point on further progress of Bitcoin/Blockchain as a whole . to them profiting/ROI  is more important than survival/Scaling  of bitcoin itself . As is now, the whole mining is centralized mainly in China, a country with restricted internet access and censorship.


I believe in the end the Chinese mega-farms are either way doomed if they can't get access to some sorta fiber optic connection or relocating their operation to somewhere else, because once we reach the transactions limit something needs to be done otherwise the whole Bitcoin will collapse

[CIYAM]

I believe in the end the Chinese mega-farms are either way doomed if they can't get access to some sorta fiber optic connection or relocating their operation to somewhere else, because once we reach the transactions limit something needs to be done otherwise the whole Bitcoin will collapse

It has nothing to do with connection equipment and everything to do with the Great Chinese Firewall and a smaller increase in block size was seen as been acceptable by both the exchanges in question so it actually seems to me that an 8MB block size limit will satisfy all parties (as Gavin has already said he'd be okay with 8MB).

Cutting out the Chinese would not actually be a very good idea for something that is designed to be a world-wide revolution in person to person payments and a non-inflationary store of value.

[CIYAM]

Adapt or die.

You do understand that >50% of the hashing rate comes from Bitcoin mining farms located in China?

If they decide to not adopt a change then put simply *no change will occur* (as they will still be creating over 50% of the blocks making any 90% consensus simply impossible to reach) so chest beating is hardly going to help here.

This is not about politics but about finding a practical solution that will let Bitcoin grow without causing a collapse in the hashing strength or confidence in the Bitcoin blockchain.

[hobbymd]

Adapt or die.

You do understand that >50% of the hashing rate comes from Bitcoin mining farms located in China?

If they decide to not adopt a change then put simply *no change will occur* (as they will still be creating over 50% of the blocks making any 90% consensus simply impossible to reach) so chest beating is hardly going to help here.

This is not about politics but about finding a practical solution that will let Bitcoin grow without causing a collapse in the hashing strength or confidence in the Bitcoin blockchain.

So what if they can't get access to better connection is not other people's fault, instead you expect everybody else bend over to their wishes? how long you plan on bending over and take it just for the sake of it?    plus having more than 50% of hashing power centralized in one location is not good either and is not called " hashing strength "  it's rather a weakness where the government can take over it if they wish especially in China. I see rather as liability for the network rather than strenght

Simply they either need to relocated to somewhere else or slowly die while dragging the rest of community with them.
 

[hobbymd]

I believe in the end the Chinese mega-farms are either way doomed if they can't get access to some sorta fiber optic connection or relocating their operation to somewhere else, because once we reach the transactions limit something needs to be done otherwise the whole Bitcoin will collapse

It has nothing to do with connection equipment and everything to do with the Great Chinese Firewall and a smaller increase in block size was seen as been acceptable by both the exchanges in question so it actually seems to me that an 8MB block size limit will satisfy all parties (as Gavin has already said he'd be okay with 8MB).

Cutting out the Chinese would not actually be a very good idea for something that is designed to be a world-wide revolution in person to person payments and a non-inflationary store of value.

Actually that would be a good idea since in China the government can take over the farms if they wish to without any recourse, just make bitcoin mining illegal and confiscate the hardware and perform a 51% attack on the rest of the network.  having all this hashing power centralized in china is a liability for the rest of the network.

Also without the Chinese miner, the network is still world wide and available in china only that mining is not possible because their own government policy of censorship and restriction.

[CIYAM]

Simply they either need to relocated to somewhere else or slowly die while dragging the rest of community with them.

When they have indicated that a more modest increase in max. block size (such as the 8MB that Gavin has stated he would accept) would be acceptable then why do you keep trying to turn this "storm in a teacup" into some sort of  Others vs. China battle?

If China ends up abandoning Bitcoin then I really don't see how that would be any sort of victory for Bitcoin at all.

China is not the only country in the world with bandwidth issues so I guess next you want to get rid of any developing countries as well and after a while pretty much Bitcoin will just be USA coin. To that I say - no thanks.

[CIYAM]

Also without the Chinese miner, the network is still world wide and available in china only that mining is not possible because their own government policy of censorship and restriction.

As Bitcoin cannot be used for anything in China other than speculation (via the exchanges) or by selling Bitcoin from mining if you take out the mining then my guess is that Bitcoin would quickly disappear from China (but maybe that is the agenda that some are seeking).

[Muhammed Zakir]

Also without the Chinese miner, the network is still world wide and available in china only that mining is not possible because their own government policy of censorship and restriction.

As Bitcoin cannot be used for anything in China other than speculation (via the exchanges) or by selling Bitcoin from mining if you take out the mining then my guess is that Bitcoin would quickly disappear from China (but maybe that is the agenda that some are seeking).

Speak for yourself. Maybe because you're Chinese citizenship?

You must have not liked freedoom.

LOL nobody abandons China. If Mining in China isnt desirable, MOVE! Follow the money not your BS

Guess what 1mb is already too big for Africa! I guess we should consider Africa first 

We should try considering most countries not just developed and China was only an example. There are other countries where internet speed is slow such as India, Africa and other underdeveloped countries. 20MB maximum block size is not a great idea but I can agree with 8MB or close to it.

You just can't tell accept or die. That is not at all a good idea.