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Author Topic: Bitcoin under attack!  (Read 1680 times)
Lauda
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June 10, 2015, 04:20:50 PM
 #21

-snip-
Looks to me like it will be rolling out into it's doom as it should.  The main reason to roll it out would be to create a period of of instability and fear which would make people feel that Bitcoin is not a viable option for wealth protection.  I'll expect it to be scheduled (or re-scheduled) for economic problems in fiat-land.

As long as a new REAL full node can be brought to life with a laptop HDD or thumb drive, and the data load of the Bitcoin network can be steganographically transmitted Bitcoin will be very difficult to kill (and thus the value within the Bitcoin blockchain will remain solid.)  I believe that the most viable attacks will be on these two aspects.  If I were charged with killing the system I would do so by bloating it to expose various weaknesses in it's shell.

I personally would expect and be comfortable with losing whatever value I entrusted to a sidechain under an attack scenario.  That is why I am fairly ambivalent to risks on those.
Another problem is that people need to be educated. Look what Amph has posted from his "logical" point of view, and the answer from bryant.coleman. (Update: Looks like you've already answered him)
People want to send transactions without including fees, and they should be put into the queue. Complains from such people should be disregarded.

Since we are already on this topic, you should look for information here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/394fn1/mike_hearn_in_about_1_week_bitcoin_xt_will/
They are claiming that "people" are actually asking them to make this move, like it needs to happen. It either isn't true or people with limited knowledge are requesting this.

Interesting. You might be onto something there, although this just confirms that we can not scale by infinitely scale by increasing the block size over and over again. Even if we only stick to 20 MB blocks, and they are full (in this scenario), the blockchain would grow by 80+ GB per month!

wait through the block queue
There won't be a block queue, thus your whole post is invalid.

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alani123
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June 10, 2015, 04:33:12 PM
 #22

Did Mike really claim that they'll push the block increase update to XT withing a week? I'm probably missing something, here. Why was the Reddit post you linked removed LaudaM? Care to shed some light onto this?

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tvbcof
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June 10, 2015, 04:52:52 PM
 #23


The issue is getting merchants to accept a sidechain and standardizing a side chain, and then when stores accept only sidechain A and you only have B you have to convert back to bitcoin and wait through the block queue (if the blocksize doesn't increase) then convert to Sidechain A to be able to spend there which could take forever. Sidechains aren't a short term solution to the blocksize, the idea of converting a million merchants to use a standard sidechain while we are having a hard time getting everyone on board with classic bitcoin seems like one damn stretch, especially if they want to turn it to fiat it will take an extra step and possibly have more volatility. 

Not so fast.  A monetary system is a very valuable thing which provide a variety of means of exploit.  This is why entities try to monopolize them.

Entities try to nibble around the edges with 'gift cards' and such, but so far those who own the dominant monetary solutions have defended the ones they own adequately.  The primary tool they use are the state judicial and enforcement capabilities and they do this by lobbying, revolving door strategies, etc.

I foresee sidechains as a way for many entities to actually take control of operation of their own monetary systems and realize the benefits that doing so can achieve.  To some extent these actors would need to transfer some of the benefits to the userbase in order to be competitive against one another.

I could imagine (and hope for) a situation where there would be, say, AmazonCoin, MyStateCoin, MyCityCoin, MyChurchCoin etc, etc.  I think it possible that if the larger and more powerful entities saw a negative benefit balance between supporting the status quo and owning their own monetary solution they might drop support for the former.  Such a thing would be pretty revolutionary.  If it were an option in time for the next bail-out (or more likely, bail-in) I would not be surprised or saddened to see the Federal Reserve in my country become an extinct footnote in the history books.


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prodigy8
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June 10, 2015, 05:01:48 PM
 #24

What will happen once we reach 1MB average block size? How is the progress going for Gavin?
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June 10, 2015, 05:04:27 PM
 #25


I am seeing an average of 500k. We are still a well below the 1M limit. Where's the attack you are talking about? Not sure why OP is using this thread title. If there is an attack, then we ought to take Gavin's proposition more seriously. We need to buy time to sort a more permanent solution.

NorrisK
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June 10, 2015, 05:26:52 PM
 #26


I am seeing an average of 500k. We are still a well below the 1M limit. Where's the attack you are talking about? Not sure why OP is using this thread title. If there is an attack, then we ought to take Gavin's proposition more seriously. We need to buy time to sort a more permanent solution.



Same here, 500k on avarage. Maybe he saw a spike to 700k and got nervous? Probably nothing to see here, but still a bigger limit wouldnt be bad in my opinion.
tvbcof
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June 10, 2015, 07:12:11 PM
 #27


Not so fast.  A monetary system is a very valuable thing which provide a variety of means of exploit.  This is why entities try to monopolize them.

Entities try to nibble around the edges with 'gift cards' and such, but so far those who own the dominant monetary solutions have defended the ones they own adequately.  The primary tool they use are the state judicial and enforcement capabilities and they do this by lobbying, revolving door strategies, etc.

I foresee sidechains as a way for many entities to actually take control of operation of their own monetary systems and realize the benefits that doing so can achieve.  To some extent these actors would need to transfer some of the benefits to the userbase in order to be competitive against one another.

I could imagine (and hope for) a situation where there would be, say, AmazonCoin, MyStateCoin, MyCityCoin, MyChurchCoin etc, etc.  I think it possible that if the larger and more powerful entities saw a negative benefit balance between supporting the status quo and owning their own monetary solution they might drop support for the former.  Such a thing would be pretty revolutionary.  If it were an option in time for the next bail-out (or more likely, bail-in) I would not be surprised or saddened to see the Federal Reserve in my country become an extinct footnote in the history books.


So the idea of instead of having one currency but instead having company currencies is ideal to you? This seems like a total pain in the ass and if you keep your money in bitcoin you would constantly be converting to a new currency wherever you go.

Computers are good at such things, and one of the operating costs that an entity would take on would be performing such translations and they would be more-or-less invisible to the end-user.  Indeed, most translations from one sidechain to another would probably not even hit the Bitcoin network.  In most cases a sidechain would perform an actual Bitcoin operation on some daily (or more) schedule for major adjustments to their circulation.  These types of operations are very cheap these days and crypto offers a lesser (or non-existent) exposure to counter-party risk and the ability to allow high degrees of transparency if their users demand it.

You cannot very well argue that Bitcoin is viable as a cost effective way to achieve transactions digitally and settlements in a sidechain network are either difficult for end-users (as an electronic cash equivalent) or higher costs.  Just the opposite is in fact true.

The wild-card would be how much regulatory burden exists.  This, in conjunction with exploitation by the monopolists, is the main thing driving up costs in our current environment.  I hope that if Bitcoin can itself remain free, there will be pressure from would-be sidechain operators to make the state lay off to a reasonable degree.  Especially if sidechains are proving valuable in other parts of the world and giving their users a competitive advantage.

Again, it is critical that Bitcoin remain free, and that can only happen if it can operate in extremely hostile environments.  Even ones where all coroprate network providers are actively attacking it on mandate from a majority of nation states.

---

I did not take an interest in Bitcoin as some sort of half-baked PayPal replacement.  My interest is predicated on it's potential to be truly revolutionary.  I never felt that it had a very high probability of overcoming the resistance and attacks and I still do not, but I still think it has enough of a chance to work towards.  I could see Hearn's XT attack coming since I took a position in 2011 and have spent the interceding years warning against it.


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June 10, 2015, 07:42:52 PM
 #28

A week ago, a group of volunteer researchers arranged "handle stress test" the network by "spam" chain of blocks of multiple transactions on the tiny amount, which resulted in over 8 hours each unit in the network has been completely filled, and a large number of transactions that did not fit in the blocks were unconfirmed.
Do you mean?

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June 10, 2015, 08:51:44 PM
 #29

more fud and total bs.  nothing is under attach.  there is no problem.  if the blocks start to get full capitalism will take over and those paying fees will go first.  the other transactions are worthless and we dont need them included anyways.
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June 10, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
 #30

I feel like this has to do with this spam experiment from this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1075590.0 if at all. It could just be a spike in the highly variable and unpredictable nature of block sizes and transactions.
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June 10, 2015, 09:34:46 PM
 #31

more fud and total bs.  nothing is under attach.  there is no problem.  if the blocks start to get full capitalism will take over and those paying fees will go first.  the other transactions are worthless and we dont need them included anyways.
So we will have Bitcoin only to the wealthier and push out all poor nations to altcoins, at least it is still better than fiat.

everyone will still have access to the btc network especially full nodes where internet speed has not yet caught up to the rest of the world.  maybe it wont be for daily spends like a cup of coffee.  it was never designed for this anyways and not used for it now.  3rd world users will still be able to move their life savings as they wish. as a whole this will only benefit the overall value of bitcoin.  gambling dust, spam and faucets do not belong on the network and only devalue the system as a whole.
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