Should Bitcoin be attempted to replace by something of National Origin?

[buysellbitcoin]

Utterly confused

Honestly a true crypto currency decentralized network can not be restricted to any boundaries. Everything else is Paypal with different name and implementation. Not that it is wrong or does not have any benefits, but if we compare it with Bitcoin, we are comparing mangos and banana. Few love banana, few love Mango

Regards

[BTCIndia]

Dear Moderator,

I've changed topic of this thread so it fits criteria of main discussions thread. I request, you to move so that people can reflect on important issue.

Sincerely,

[BTCIndia]

A cryptocurrency can't be national, by definition.
Read my explanation above.

As per Coinbase compliance head, Hody  said that " bitcoin is a protocol, a payment network and a digital currency – often simultaneously –it may attract the interest of various different regulators ( http://www.coindesk.com/be-vigilant-on-compliance-coinbase-warns-bitcoin-startups/ )

Already Internationals banks are adopting the Ripple as a payment network, why can't a National Cryptocurrency used as a protocol / a payment network (http://www.coindesk.com/australia-commonwealth-bank-ripple-experiment)

Britain and Greece are analyzing national cryptocurrency as a payment network , why can't a National cryptocurrency used as a payment network in India( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11434904/Bitcoin-revolution-could-be-the-next-internet-says-Bank-of-England.html)

I'm not surprised with your understanding as you have background and long track experience in financial field. I'm glad someone is willing to discuss with open mind. I look forward to any question you have.
Thanks!

[skang]

A cryptocurrency can't be national, by definition.
Read my explanation above.

As per Coinbase compliance head, Hody  said that " bitcoin is a protocol, a payment network and a digital currency – often simultaneously –it may attract the interest of various different regulators ( http://www.coindesk.com/be-vigilant-on-compliance-coinbase-warns-bitcoin-startups/ )

Already Internationals banks are adopting the Ripple as a payment network, why can't a National Cryptocurrency used as a protocol / a payment network (http://www.coindesk.com/australia-commonwealth-bank-ripple-experiment)

Britain and Greece are analyzing national cryptocurrency as a payment network , why can't a National cryptocurrency used as a payment network in India( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11434904/Bitcoin-revolution-could-be-the-next-internet-says-Bank-of-England.html)

You didn't read that explanation, did you? Read its last para again for "why not".

1. I agree as per Hody that it may attract interest of regulators, but they can't do anything about it.
2. Ripple is centralized. Since it started so early, when things were not that clear, lot of early investors have vested interests. Yes, you can do something like ripple. PayTM and Trestor are already doing it!
3. "They are analyzing". RBI's Raghuram has said himself that "bankers would have to find new jobs" because of cryptocurrencies.

Apart from that, people who trust banks in India (which is more than 3% of Indians who pay tax and less than 50% of Indians who have bank accounts) will have no problem trusting them again with a 'national' cryptocurrency, but the rest would not. Former is a big market but how would that be any different from Axis Ping Pay?

I welcome any Indian cryptocurrency.

Naming anything 'national' doesn't actually make it so, but yes names can cause an illusion and would serve nice marketing to lure the uneducated.

[Amitabh S]

It's hard to restrict something like a cryptocurrency to national borders.

I mean how would you filter users? IP address? Aadhar number?? It wont work.

I thought about this for a long time and don't see any way to control membership apart from some sort of centralized system (Govt.).

Maybe I'm missing something that others see.

[skang]

I'm not surprised with your understanding as you have background and long track experience in financial field. I'm glad someone is willing to discuss with open mind. I look forward to any question you have.
Thanks!

We are all willing to discuss if you have any points at all, but all it seems you have background and long track experience in, is trolling.

Like, Anybody not voting for BJP -> not for development
Anybody who doesn't agree with BTCIndia -> not open minded

Indirect ridicule as defense mechanism works in following 2 cases both of which won't work here:
1. If your followers can beat up the other party's followers. (Won't work because trolling without evidence is not in majority here yet)
2. When people's direct identity is involved. In ordinary matters of inquiry into events that yield confounding and contradictory evidence, people might defend or attack the evidence. But they do not ridicule each other. (On this forum, even if you do that it doesn't matter because most identities are pseudonymous.)

Let us argue sensibly.

I have only one question from you :
How do you propose to contain a cryptocurrency to a national boundary, without a central authority?

[BTCIndia]

It's hard to restrict something like a cryptocurrency to national borders.

I mean how would you filter users? IP address? Aadhar number?? It wont work.

I thought about this for a long time and don't see any way to control membership apart from some sort of centralized system (Govt.).

Maybe I'm missing something that others see.

I'm glad you took time to contemplate on question before commenting. I meant national cryptocurrency for anyone interested worldwide, not just limited to national users. I'm reflecting on this subject very deeply therefore repercussions.
Yes, we are missing something big here(at least, I believe so). I'm actively digging to reach it, couldn't find co-digger.
Developers everywhere, vision nowhere. I'm not talking about vision of banking unbanked, decentralized currency and nation-less currency.

[BTCIndia]

I'm not surprised with your understanding as you have background and long track experience in financial field. I'm glad someone is willing to discuss with open mind. I look forward to any question you have.
Thanks!

We are all willing to discuss if you have any points at all, but all it seems you have background and long track experience in, is trolling.

Like, Anybody not voting for BJP -> not for development
Anybody who doesn't agree with BTCIndia -> not open minded

Indirect ridicule as defense mechanism works in following 2 cases both of which won't work here:
1. If your followers can beat up the other party's followers. (Won't work because trolling without evidence is not in majority here yet)
2. When people's direct identity is involved. In ordinary matters of inquiry into events that yield confounding and contradictory evidence, people might defend or attack the evidence. But they do not ridicule each other. (On this forum, even if you do that it doesn't matter because most identities are pseudonymous.)

Let us argue sensibly.

I have only one question from you :
How do you propose to contain a cryptocurrency to a national boundary, without a central authority?

I never suggested a cryptocurreny limited to national boundary. Instead, I suggested a national crypto-currency initiative by national participants(government and private participants). Where government is monitoring authority and group of people its engine.

Next questions is what advantage it would have? Think of Ola Cabs standing against Uber. I'm not telling world to switch Ola.. but we must strive to make ola an important company. So that, whenever tourist or people interested in India are here.. they think of Ola and use .. not uber.(Power of 1.2 billion)

What that would do?

Uber valuation is somewhat $40 billion dollar and growing. Its maximum potential is in India. So if India rejects, I guess it would put down its valuation by someone what $5 billion dollar. Its not just Uber everything related to Uber is its technology, its R&D, analytic, satellite navigation, petrol utilized .. everything is foreign origin. Now, think yourself as early share holder of Uber.

What would you do? I"m sure. If you've self-interest and wish to promote consumerism then you'd actively promote it nationwide. Else, if you're early adapter then probably you understand, what impact you'll have and therefore support/boost Ola...so that its can have initial momentum(a chance to compete).

I've tried to explain in metaphor to keep your imagination going. Later, I'll come to some technical things that I'm firmly believe would happen.

[skang]

I'm not talking about vision of  decentralized currency.

Issue resolved!

Yes a centralized crypto can be done but banks are ahead on it already, so it must offer a benefit over banks.
OR could be a tie up with a bank.

Go for it BTCIndia, I always wanted an app that connects all banks' accounts.

[BTCIndia]

Like, Anybody not voting for BJP -> not for development
Anybody who doesn't agree with BTCIndia -> not open minded

People are so firmly in Bitcoin that, they're not able to see event from vantage point. I don't know. I've chaos in head. I must take a break from worry!

[ashish12]

I'm not talking about vision of  decentralized currency.

Issue resolved!

Yes a centralized crypto can be done but banks are ahead on it already, so it must offer a benefit over banks.
OR could be a tie up with a bank.

Go for it BTCIndia, I always wanted an app that connects all banks' accounts.

exactly I also want an app that connects all bank accounts 

[BTCIndia]

I'm not talking about vision of  decentralized currency.

Issue resolved!

Yes a centralized crypto can be done but banks are ahead on it already, so it must offer a benefit over banks.
OR could be a tie up with a bank.

Go for it BTCIndia, I always wanted an app that connects all banks' accounts.

Thanks a lot! I owe you, stupidity in return.

[skang]

You owe your dad for his stupidity you shitty trolling person, who has nothing intellectual to contribute at all. Zero. Also, you put comma in the wrong place which changes the meaning you illiterate.

Nevertheless, I don't mean what I said in the previous line but was just displaying how ad hominems work. They are irritating. So stop doing it & I am sorry if it hurt you.
Now onto something interesting..

Your unique proposition is that it would solve the 'Early adopters advantage' problem by a counter 'Early adopter's advantage'.
You realize there is a paradox here? If everyone (Indians) realizes that early adopters have an advantage then there are no late adopters!

What if early adopting Indians decide to gain advantage from late adopting fellow Indians, out of their greed?

Ooh if that happens then economic advantage shifts from the 'powerful by virtue of force'(PVOF) to 'powerful by virtue of information'(PVOI) which is 16% of Indians who have access to internet.

The PVOF, also known as the government, won't like it, at first. So you include them too onboard your plan.
Then they would realize that, by virtue of money spent in mining, it is actually their (PVOF's) slice of pie which is being re-distributed between 'them + the PVOIs' and thus won't agree.
Then you'd convince them that the slice of pie being taken away from them, is much smaller than the rise in size of the pie because of frictionless foreign investment possible by crypto.
So although they are getting a smaller fraction but the pie on whole has grown so big that now they are getting more!

So, then you would need to do three things:
1. Prepare data about how larger pie can get because of frictionless FDI.
Which would be those areas? The only thing out of govt control is untaxed "digital assets". So the rise in pie is sum of those digital assets being sold by Indians, that govt is unable to tax.
2. Ask the PVOIs to make and sell digital goods to increase the FDI. This is very hard since we are only considering non-taxable sellers here, these PVOIs already doing this don't pay tax as per point 1 and thus won't wanna change it. Hence step 3.
3. Spread internet to rest of 84% indians and help them make and sell digital goods! More this happens, more the pie grows!


कान दूसरी तरफ से पाकड़ो तो, tl;dr :
Get Internet devoid Indians to make and sell digital goods. But since you can't tax digital goods because of difficulty in tracing them, issue a new type of currency that lets people sell digital goods without paying tax, but pre-print a lot of it for yourself.


Brilliant! Except that the govt would say "if this is possible then we'd simply spread internet and keep monitoring the sales in INR, so if anybody wants to actually receive money for their goods, they'd have to go through us; this is where we tax them."


So then you go to the PVOIs and explain all of the above to them and ask them to keep govt out of it.
Tell them that they have 3 advantages (a) being early adopters (b) recognition of early market of digital goods (c) opportunity to become the ISP for 85% of India  

But now, you won't have the support of the govt, so you need a new method to tie it to their national identity.

Hmm..  

Since adhar card number is public it could only be a public key so cant be used.
What is the secret key that every Indian possesses? Only their signature or thumbprint.

Write an algorithm to convert thumb prints to private keys. oh shit, the govt took all my fingerprints for adhaar card.

Hmm..  

I have a mechanism. Let me know if anyone seriously wanna buy it.

OR Use toe prints???

[Amitabh S]

I'm not talking about vision of  decentralized currency.

Issue resolved!

Yes a centralized crypto can be done but banks are ahead on it already, so it must offer a benefit over banks.
OR could be a tie up with a bank.

Go for it BTCIndia, I always wanted an app that connects all banks' accounts.

Is centralized crypto really done??
What consensus model (for transaction verification) will be used? How will 51% attacks be prevented?
Assuming its premined, how will we ensure a "bad bank" does not put in a lot of resources to reverse transactions?

[Amitabh S]

Since adhar card number is public it could only be a public key so cant be used.
What is the secret key that every Indian possesses? Only their signature or thumbprint.

Write an algorithm to convert thumb prints to private keys. oh shit, the govt took all my fingerprints for adhaar card.

It doesn't make sense to use biometrics as private keys. Instead they can be used as public keys.
See this paper: Fuzzy Identity Based Encryption

[skang]

Since adhar card number is public it could only be a public key so cant be used.
What is the secret key that every Indian possesses? Only their signature or thumbprint.

Write an algorithm to convert thumb prints to private keys. oh shit, the govt took all my fingerprints for adhaar card.

It doesn't make sense to use biometrics as private keys. Instead they can be used as public keys.
See this paper: Fuzzy Identity Based Encryption

That is what I said. Easily copyable and govt already owns mine!
I do have a method though.

[Aayush]

Original Thread was "Embrace Yourself for National Cryptocurrency"

And it was moved to altcoins sections therefore, I'm changing its title so that it suits main thread. Essence is same. National currency how important compared to Bitcoin?

Take your time to educate with intricacies of financial world. And lets pray together that, full-time nodes actively promulgating so called 'disruption' and 'network effect' backed by argument of 'innate network effect' do not discard National Cryptocurrency as another altcoin.

If its is launched then should we adapt or discard it?

Let's try to keep national differences apart and think of the whole world for once.
After all this is what our Indian philosophy is based on, integrating the whole world as a single entity.

Which nation do you take Bitcoin to be originated from?
Well there is no single that can be identified.

Let's keep things to that and accept Bitcoin as a world currency without bringing in nationalistic barriers.

[BTCIndia]

Original Thread was "Embrace Yourself for National Cryptocurrency"

And it was moved to altcoins sections therefore, I'm changing its title so that it suits main thread. Essence is same. National currency how important compared to Bitcoin?

Take your time to educate with intricacies of financial world. And lets pray together that, full-time nodes actively promulgating so called 'disruption' and 'network effect' backed by argument of 'innate network effect' do not discard National Cryptocurrency as another altcoin.

If its is launched then should we adapt or discard it?

Let's try to keep national differences apart and think of the whole world for once.
After all this is what our Indian philosophy is based on, integrating the whole world as a single entity.

Which nation do you take Bitcoin to be originated from?
Well there is no single that can be identified.

Let's keep things to that and accept Bitcoin as a world currency without bringing in nationalistic barriers.

World was never one. Boundaries exists in mind and we're accustomed for thousands of years. Forget humans, animals have boundaries too. It is not getting away any soon with one currency. Maybe, force globalization will occur but boundaries will always be there. Don't be so naive. We need change of mind not currency for vision of one world.

That said, its origin is very obvious. VERY OBVIOUS. Lets hope, I'm wrong. Why not leave matter to accept/deny currency acceptance with domain experts? Ask yourself, how much you understand currency? Well, after years of studies, I'm confident about 1-2 percent. Its not just currency we're talking about... but social fabric of society.

Cheers,

[Aayush]

World was never one. Boundaries exists in mind and we're accustomed for thousands of years. Forget humans, animals have boundaries too. It is not getting away any soon with one currency. Maybe, force globalization will occur but boundaries will always be there. Don't be so naive. We need change of mind not currency for vision of one world.

That said, its origin is very obvious. VERY OBVIOUS. Lets hope, I'm wrong. Why not leave matter to accept/deny currency acceptance with domain experts? Ask yourself, how much you understand currency? Well, after years of studies, I'm confident about 1-2 percent. Its not just currency we're talking about... but social fabric of society.

Cheers,

I don't say it is one, but it is ideal for it to be one, a single currency will help change mindsets too, and help integrating the world towards being one entity.
Boundaries are always there, within a nation, states are a boundaries, but there are always some things that bind the nation together, a world currency can be a thing that binds the world together.

[BTCIndia]

World was never one. Boundaries exists in mind and we're accustomed for thousands of years. Forget humans, animals have boundaries too. It is not getting away any soon with one currency. Maybe, force globalization will occur but boundaries will always be there. Don't be so naive. We need change of mind not currency for vision of one world.

That said, its origin is very obvious. VERY OBVIOUS. Lets hope, I'm wrong. Why not leave matter to accept/deny currency acceptance with domain experts? Ask yourself, how much you understand currency? Well, after years of studies, I'm confident about 1-2 percent. Its not just currency we're talking about... but social fabric of society.

Cheers,

I don't say it is one, but it is ideal for it to be one, a single currency will help change mindsets too, and help integrating the world towards being one entity.
Boundaries are always there, within a nation, states are a boundaries, but there are always some things that bind the nation together, a world currency can be a thing that binds the world together.

I like you. You're so polite. ^_^
Yes we need one world currency if outcome of debate called globalization is yes. A world currency is sure to bind us together if ulterior motive is not politics and self-interest. I believe, every other political agenda and moves will be soon dwarfed by Bitcoin. Bitcoin has more to do with politics and less to do with what commons here claim.

*Freedom of thought/stupidity/imagination at its best here*